i love her ^^

My favorite Disney Male<3

I love Mulan.

I love Quasi, but Mulan's an all time favourite.

Ugh, This was hard. But I think I'll just go with Quasi for now.

Oh I love them both!

Mulan is brave and strong and independent but Quasi is such a sweetheart, I'd love him to be my friend.

They are both extremely extraordinary characters--almost too perfect, and Mary Sue like. However, I prefer Quasimodo for the following reasons:

1) He may be an extraordinary character, but he's in a movie full of extraordinary characters. Disney's version makes Quasimodo, Esmerelda, and Phoebus incredible heroes of Jean Valjean proportions, while concentrating all evil aspects into Frolo. I actually love these changes. They transform a depressing tale of decrepit people into an uplifting epic tug-of-war between good and evil.

As extraordinary as Quasimodo is, he's actually edged out by the even more extraordinary Phoebus.

Since Quasimodo lives in a world full of unrealistic giants, I excuse him for being just as unrealistic.

2) His voice! Honestly, it's hard for me to consider Quasimodo ugly when his appearance is so overwhelmingly counterbalanced by the most sublimely beautiful voice in the universe.

3) I relate to him more. I actually relate to him more than Beast, because of his artistic creativity. I've also had that sort of romantic drama, although of course not with someone so amazing as Esmerelda.

4) I simply like his story more. The Hunchback of Notre Dame is the sort of story I wish Beauty and the Beast was--a true love triangle between credible romantic rivals. Gaston was too disgusting and evil for my tastes. I would have liked it if Gaston were less Frolo and more Phoebus. But I don't have a time machine, so I'll just have to be satisfied with tHoND. *sob* *sob* (not really)

I actually adore both moviesand both characters. Mulan was my childhood hero and inspiration along with Ariel so I feel like I have to pick her, but Quasimodo is a brilliantly constructed character and I also love how unlike many male protagonists in Disney movies he does NOT get the girl in the end and Phoebus, who stands in a way of his love for Esmeralda (or at least that is what Quasi believes at some point) is not portrayed as some evil heartless manipulative bastard and he's in fact a great, noble and amazing person (unlike his book equivalent). Also it is such an admirable thing that Quasi and Phoebus end up becoming friends before Quasi gets over his feelings for Esmeralda (I don't even think that he does get over them entirely by the end of the movie), that moment when Phoebus catches Quasimodo in the end and Quasi gives him a hug never fails to make my heart melt. And then Quasi realizes that no matter how much he loves Esmeralda, this love was more aimed at him wanting to belong and that she already found someone she belonged with, Phoebus and by connecting their hands Quasimodo gives them his blessing. It was so beautiful.

I agree that he's not over his feelings for Esmeralda by the end of the movie. He's still in love with her. His feelings wouldn't change so quickly unless Esmeralda did something to turn him off to her--which she didn't do, of course. She's perfect.

What he does get over is his feelings of bitterness over Esmeralda already having her knight in shining armor. He briefly tries to hate Phoebus, but that doesn't last long because Phoebus is just too likable and awesome. Quasimodo can't help but admit he's the better man, and Esmeralda is better off with him.

Phoebus is the better man, of course. He touches Esmeralda's heart when he sacrifices himself for just some random innocent people. He's not doing it out of some newfound realization inspired by a girl. He doesn't even know she's around, watching from the shadows.

Quasimodo's motivations are less pure and more conflicted. He had no interest in the problems of others until Esmeralda exposed him to the truth. And even if he cared, that world shunned him anyway. Quasimodo's heroics are inspired more by his love for a girl than his sense of right and wrong.

He briefly convinces himself that he has a real chance with Esmeralda, and I think he really did. She didn't recoil at his looks, nor was she impressed by Phoebus's looks. She really was touched by Quasimodo's art, but she would be more touched by Phoebus's moral heroics. This reflects her own characteristics. She was an artist, but that was just what she did for a living. Her moral crusade, in contrast, was who she was. So, of course Phoebus would be closer to her heart than Quasimodo.

I still like Quasi's character more, though. Esmeralda and Phoebus are fully formed and have complete moral certitude throughout the movie. Quasimodo grows and changes...even Frolo has more character development than Phoeberalda.

Quasimodo's big epiphany comes when he realizes that his love for Esmeralda is meaningless if he lets his bitter disappointment get in the way of doing the right thing for her. Just because she already has her knight in shining armor is no reason for him to not also be a knight in shining armor for her. Even if she can't be with him romantically, she'll still be as loyal a friend as can be. She'd still do anything for him. Anything at all. Quasimodo realizes this, and ultimately realizes that he should do the same for her. Even if he's crushed that he can't do for Esmeralda what he wishes he could do, he should still do what he can for her.

I think that this message would have been a little too depressing for what the filmmakers wanted, so they gave Quasimodo the consolation prize of being accepted by the people. I don't think this was ever his motivation, though. I think that for him, it was all about Esmeralda. If his heroics saving the popular Esmeralda made him popular with the people, that was just a side effect Quasimodo didn't think about.

Esmeralda was the kind of woman who clearly did NOT need a knight in shining armor and I agree that she fell in love with Phoebus not because of his looks (she can easily see past looks and her friendship with Quasimodo proves it) and not because he would be able to protect her (because Quasimodo could protect her better, he saved her more times than Phoebus ever did, but she still didn't choose him, which is also another great massege of the movie: you don't owe your heart to someone who saves you) but because of what kind of a person he was, his nobility and unwillingess to go against his morals.

Personally, I love Esmeralda more than Phoebus and Quasi, but I love the two guys equally. I don't particulary think Quasi changed in terms of personality, he just found out the truth about Frollo and was able to break away from his prison, but things he did for Esmeralda in the end, even knowing that she will never be with him, were admirable and beautiful as well as the fact that Quasi ended up loving Phoebus so much as a friend in spite of being somewhat jealus of his looks and the fact that Esmeralda chose him.

Yes, Esmeralda could take care of herself! But even Superman needed to be saved by Lois Lane sometimes (actually a lot of the time). Obviously, Esmeralda needed saving when she was being burned at the stake, and Phoebus was locked up.

I think Quasimodo had a huge change that had little to do with Frolo. He actually has two "I want" songs, and both of them were painfully naive. Quasimodo has heartbreakingly idyllic ideas about what life and love are like out there, and he learns that both are more complicated than he knew.

His first I want song declares that he would be satisfied with just one day out there. Of course, every viewer knows that one day would never be enough. It wouldn't satisfy him, it would instead make the tower even more painful. Quasimodo would learn this himself, soon enough, of course. Of course, this isn't something Frolo would ever discuss with Quasimodo; he'd only insist Quasimodo never ever go out.

Quasimodo's second "I want" song is, I think more important. He has developed ideas about what romantic love is like from watching happy couples from far above. When Quasimodo gets closer than he dared hope for, he reveals his desires that he didn't dare ponder in the first song. Of course, things don't work out. As Quasimodo gets past his bitter disappointment, he discovers that romantic love is more complicated than he knew. He also discovers that there are other important things in life also. Before he went out and experienced life for himself, he had only seen happy couples from far above. He didn't understand what it was all about.

Of course, romantic love isn't something Frolo would have talked about with Quasimodo. The most he'd say would be to repeat his lie that no one would ever love him--not even his mother. Quasimodo's blissfully idealistic ideas about love would be something he came up with himself via his own observations and thoughts.

By the way, I really think Esmeralda felt more than just friendship when she first got to know Quasimodo. When she tries to talk Quasimodo to flee with her, she kisses him on the cheek to try and convince him. I really don't think she would do that if she didn't feel some attraction to him, because that would be too cruel. Esmeralda was experienced in the world and knew her effect on men. She naturally knew Quasimodo had a crush on her, and she knew how he'd take a kiss from her. I don't think she would be so cruel as to plant such false hope in him.

After Esmeralda gets to know Phoebus, of course, she falls for him. After this, Esmeralda never sends any such signals to Quasimodo. She treats him only as a dear friend.

Anyway, I agree that the friendship of Quasimodo and Phoebus is really beautiful. They actually start off grudgingly working together because they need each other's help, but even then they didn't really dislike each other. I'd have to rewatch the movie; I don't remember whether Phoebus ever realized that Quasimodo had feelings for Esmeralda beyond the usual love that the people in general had for her. In other words, I don't remember if Phoebus ever thought of Quasimodo as a romantic rival. Either way, he certainly regarded him as a valuable friend and ally.

Oh--I don't want to neglect the other star of this thread, Mulan. I think Mulan is a bit misunderstood in one respect. In the middle of "I'll Make a Man Out of You", Mulan memorably refuses to be thrown out of the army. Her motivations are not entirely clear, and I think they're a little misunderstood.

Obviously, part of her motivation is a need to prove herself. Possibly, part of her motivation is her attraction to Shang. Possibly, part of her motivation is the influence of Mushu, who says she needs to become a war hero in order to return home with pride.

But I think that becoming a war hero would be the last thing on Mulan's mind at this point. She can't even keep up in boot camp, never mind attaining glory in war!

No, I think Mulan's main motivation was simply that she felt she had nowhere else to go. She felt she had no home to return to; she could never make up for the shame she had brought to her family. She had no thought of ever returning home; she just did it to save her father's life. She felt her father's life was worth more than honor, even if he himself disagreed.

That's why, I think, it was so important that she returned home at the end instead of taking a place in the royal court. It shows that it really was something important to her, that she sacrificed.

There's a popular movie which, I think, helps understand Mulan's decision to stay in the army. It's "An Officer and a Gentleman", a story about a man who enlists in the Navy. For various reasons, his training sergeant tries to get him to quit. But the officer candidate stays no matter what torture the sergeant puts him through. Ultimately, the candidate admits that he has nowhere else to go. I think Mulan's decision to stay in the army is based on this, but it wasn't explicitly clear because of the limitations of the song format.

Both are awesome and in my top 20 favorite favorite animated characters

Quasimodo's "one day" song is not really about his idealistic ideas regarding life and the outside world, but a desperate desire to be able to one day get what he dreamt of for so long, even if it doesn't last. Which is pretty understandable. That is how minds of a lot of people work when they really want something - they would be ready to embrace and have this something even knowing that it's only for a day, hour, munite, just to be able to experience it. Even knowing that the pain over losing it might be much stronger than the one over not having it, still, a lot of people would prefer to get what they desire for at least some time and then be heartbroken over it's loss than to never experience the happiness of having it. Quasimodo didn't have much of a hope to be accepted by people out there, especially since Frollo did a pretty good job in making him believe he was a monster, and that's why naturally he didn't have the ability to dream big or to even think of the possibility to one day be successfully and effectively integrated into the society. And his dream was limited to being able to experience what it's like to be out there without hoping for more and that is where that "one day" came from. Later, when he actually gets to experience that "one day" and this experience ends up being traumatizing, his desire changes, because he is effected by Esmeralda's kindness and he believes that while everyone else didn't accept him, she might end up doing so because she already showed a sign of kindness and protectiveness towards him, treating him right, and overall seemed like a more of an open minded, caring person compared to other people. His feelings for Esmeralda was a desire to belong. It wasn't exactly a romantic love imo. Also, Esmeralda kissing on a cheek wasn't something that would obligate her to anything other than friendship with Quasi or even something she would need to clarify. Obviously, Quasi made up something in his head, but Esmeralda never showed him, in any shape or form, that she wanted any sort of romantic bonding with him. And at that point she already had feelings for Phoebus, because despite not knowing him well enough and not yet seeing his heroic and selfless acts that would make her fall for him even more, she developed some kind of feeling for him, because there was a natural attraction between them from the very start, right from the moment they layed their eyes on one another and while said attraction at some point mixed with love/hate kind of feeling on Esmeralda's side (in the church when she thought he came to arrest her, but instead he ended up helping her), still it was there and it was something very different from Esmeralda's friendly feelings/affection/admiration of Quasi.



To me, Mulan's story was about a girl who always tried to prove something to someone and eventually realized that she doesn't have to prove anything to anyone but herself. She starts the movie as a girl who was willing to marry whoever the matchmaker would choose for her only to bring the honor to her family and "keep her father standing tall". When she fails, she is being heartbroken and starts asking questions to herself, whether she is suited for a role of a perfect daughter or wife, and while she comes to a conclusion that she probably isn't, she is being genuinly disappointed in herself. She considers herself a failure. Then when her father is called to war, she decides to take his place because in addition to wanting to save him she also wants to prove something, but she yet doesn't know who she wants to prove something to. Maybe she wants to make up for the failure with the matchmaker, maybe she intends to make her family proud of her or at least forgive her for said failure because she genuinly believes she ended up being an embarressment and a disappointment, or maybe she even wants to die, either by her identity being revealed or during the war itself. As the movie progresses, she gets an opportunity to leave when Shang offers her to "pack up and go home" because he couldn't make a man out of her. And Mulan doesn't accept it because she doesn't want to be a failure anymore. Partly, of course, she wants to prove that she is capable of something to Shang, but partly she does it for herself and eventually she realizes that pretty much everything she did starting from running away and pretending to be a male solder, was to prove herself that she was not a failure, that she was worth something; and she admits this desire after her identity is finally revealed. She also comes to a realization that she failed at her main mission, that she did not end up proving anything to herself other than that she can't do anything right.

And she - gets over it. Yes. She is sad and upset but she gets over it and is willing to go home but then the villian of the movie "rises" from the tones of snow fallen on him and Mulan instinctively rushes to warn Shang and the guys from tyhe army about the danger, not for fame, not to prove something to anyone or to herself anymore, not to gain something, but just because she developed a feeling of responsibility for her country and her friends, even if said friends and Shang would never want to talk to her again because of her lie. She wasn't intending to make it about herself nor did she know that coming to celebration to talk to Shang would give her a chance to shine and she end ups being the hero of China, she does what she does just because it is a right thing to do. And THIS is her growth and character development. This is when she also ends up succeeding. Goals are a good thing, but above them there should be a beating, passionate and loyal heart that is willing to risk and fight for what it believes in, without thinking about getting anything in return.

Finally, when Mulan comes back home the feeling of wanting to bring the honor to her family and to prove to them that she is capable of achieving something returns (but at that point it wasn't her main goal anymore, but merely a natural desire to make your parents proud) and she hands her medals of honor to her father - only to see her father throwing them aside, giving her a hug and telling him that it is HER he is proud of and not her achievements, that the greatest honor for him is to have a daughter like her because parents should love their children not FOR something but for just being their children. And this is another strong point about Mulan's story.

I'm doing my arXiv paper review so I'll have to finish writing my ideas tomorrow; I just wanted to make a quick note.

My thoughts on Mulan are changing right now because I just remembered what pushed her over the edge--seeing her mother argue with her father. I think that before that, Mulan always questioned whether what she thought was right, because no one ever agreed with her. At dinner, she expressed her conviction to her dad that he should refuse the summons--that his life was worth more than honor. Of course, no one agreed with her.

But later that night, she sees that in fact her mother agrees with her. She didn't back up Mulan at dinner because she "knows her place". She'd never disagree with her husband in front of others. But in fact, she also wants Fa Zhou to refuse the summons. She also thinks his life is worth more than honor.

I think it must have been an incredible turning point for Mulan--for someone to agree with her idea about what was right. I think all it took was one person to agree for Mulan to have confidence in her conviction.

I have more to say, but it'll have to wait for tomorrow.

By the way, Mulan explicitly says maybe she was trying to prove she could do things right. She says "right", instead of "well". She's not talking about doing things skillfully. She;s talking about doing the right thing. The way it's phrased, it sounds like she's talking about the former, but that unexpected last word changes the meaning.

I think she still would have done what she did even without seeing her parents arguing. Obviously, her mother was worried and at heart she knew that her husband probably wouldn't make it through the war (not even probably but most likely) and her emotions regarding it were conflicted but at the same time she accepted the fact that he had to go and she only expressed the concern behind the closed doors of their bedroom not knowing that their daughter was watching it, but Mulan, showing her expressive and passionate nature, of course said everything that was on her mind regarding the subject at dinner and of course had everyone snapping at her.

That's the thing about her character, she realized she wanted to do the right thing without trying to prove anything to anyone and only when she realized it, only when she did something without having a goal to succeed she ended up succeeding.

I think that most people realize that experiencing something they so desperately want for a short time will be painful afterward. I understand.

I don't think Quasimodo realizes this. There's not a hint of this in his song. He honestly thinks that just one day will fully satisfy him. His song is completely optimistic, without the slightest hint of sarcasm or doubt.

Quasimodo definitely had a romantic crush on Esmeralda. "Heaven's Light" and "A Guy Like You" are entirely about romantic love. Maybe it wasn't quite "true" love, whatever exactly the difference is. But it surely was a romantic crush and not just friendship. I'm not sure exactly what you're saying about Quasimodo's feelings for Esmeralda. If you're saying he didn't really have feelings other than friendship, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't see any ambiguity about that in the movie.

On the other hand, Esmeralda's feelings for Quasimodo are certainly open to interpretation. I agree that a kiss on the cheek is not something she would be obligated about, but I'm thinking about Esmeralda's sensitivity to Quasimodo's feelings. Obviously, she cares very much about not hurting his feelings, and she felt guilty about accidentally putting him through public humiliation. I think she knew how a kiss on the cheek would affect Quasimodo, and I don't think she would irresponsibly set him up for another emotional fall--especially not one which would hurt so much more than the one she already put him through.

Besides, Esmeralda was literally trying to get Quasimodo to run away with her. That meant leaving behind his spacious home--which she was impressed by--and all of his belongings--including his years of carvings. Did she want him to give up all that just to be near a friend? I do not believe so.

Maybe she selfishly wanted him to be around, even though she knew how he would feel if his love was hopeless. But I think that she wouldn't be so selfish unless she couldn't help herself. And I think that she couldn't help herself if she loved him, just a little.

And when Quasimodo ultimately refused to leave his home, Esmeralda promised to come back and visit regardless of the obvious danger. She even gave Quasimodo a map to her secret home. Esmeralda is nice, but was she so nice to all the guys? I don't think so. I think she had a bit of a sweet spot for Quasimodo, even if she didn't crush on him as much as he crushed on her.

Maybe Esmeralda already had a bit of a sweet spot for Phoebus, also. I'll agree that she and Phoebus had chemistry from the start. But she was still suspicious of him. She didn't even trust that his "sanctuary" ploy wasn't some sort of trick, even when it plainly saved her from Frollo. Even if Esmeralda felt some attraction to Phoebus, she couldn't tell whether it would go anywhere or if Phoebus was the enemy. Even if Phoebus were nice to her, that could have just been due to his attraction to her specifically. As far as Esmeralda knew, the Captain of the Guard was still the oppressor of all the other gypsies. And if he were still the enemy of all the other innocent gypsies, then he was her enemy no matter how nice he might be to her.

I didn't say that Quasimodo didn't have romantic feelings for Esmeralda or at least what he believed to be romantic feelings, I'm saying that for someone with such strong insecurities and social problems like him when he didn't even have any sort of an opportunity to form bonds and emotional connections with anyone other than the person who constantly brainwashed him into believing that he was a monster (Frollo), having someone like Esmeralda suddenly coming into his life and being caring and kind to him despite his horrible looks (and despite the idea that Frollo planted in Quasi's head that no one will ever see him as anything but a monster because of his appearence) can provoke a "wrong" kind of reaction and I think his romantic feelings for her developed because of his desire to belong to someone and not even because he had some sort of real sexual "adult" attraction to Esmeralda.

Quasimodo's song and it's optimism doesn't undo the damage that Frollo and harmful things he kept telling Quaismodo for his entire life about being a monster and never living up to the day when he might be accepted did to his psyche and his mind. Quasi still considered himself a monster and he couldn't even bring himself to dream of anything more than just one day out there.

Esmeralda never demonstrated or showed anything but friendly feelings for Quaso. Her mentality might be different from many people, she and other guipsies lived together like a one big family and it was pretty much a habbit to care about each other as if they were all brothers and sisters and Esmeralda, considering Quasi her friend and being very greatful to him for all the help (and also being aware of what kind of emotionally abusive and harmful/disturbing statements Frollo kept feeding him up with), offered him to join their family, to be by her side like her other friends. Plus it would be another step on a way of defeating Frollo and his destructive influence on everything that he wanted to bring down - and she and Quaso both were in that position, even if Quasi didn't realize that yet still considering him a master who took care of him in apite of his "horrible looks" but Esmeralda saw it clearly and she saw what kind of person Frollo was and how much of a traumatic effect he had on Quasi.

That is what is so great about Phoebus/Esmeralda to me, they were not a blind kind of love. They had a natural attraction from the very start but it wasn't untill the point when Esmeralda saw Phoebus doing noble and great things that defined his as a person in addition to proving the fact that she could really trust him she ended up falling for him completely.

Thanks for the explanation, I wasn't sure exactly what you meant. I would agree that Quasimodo was touched by Esmeralda's caring and kindness, but that wasn't romantic love yet. Quasimodo also found Esmeralda attractive, naturally, but that wasn't romantic love yet either.

Besides, it's possible to fall in love with someone before knowing what she looks like. I think that his romantic feelings for her developed when she showed interest in him. Caring and kindness feels nice, but interest can drive your heart crazy.

Whether Esmeralda meant to or not, her earnest interest in Quasimodo made him feel something more. When she tried so hard to get him to run away with her, Quasimodo couldn't help but get the "wrong" idea. Maybe it was just her different mentality, but I like to think that she was more careful with Quasimodo's feelings than that.

Also, does Esmeralda even have other friends? Even if the other gypsies are her "family", there wasn't anyone among them who helped her evade the guards like Quasimodo or Phoebus. I don't think she had any close friends, unless her goat counts. Esmeralda was popular in a general way; even a leader. But she didn't seem to have anyone close until Quasimodo and Phoebus.

Phoebus wouldn't have any friends around because he had only just arrived. Quasimodo was secluded all his life. What's Esmeralda's excuse? I think she must have been naturally a loner. Maybe she even had a reputation for liking to take care of herself. Whatever the reason, Esmeralda didn't seem to have any close friends and she didn't seem lonely about it either. I think she felt something special about Quasimodo. This is open to interpretation, of course.

I think Mulan always had her sense of right and wrong, but she started off without confidence in her convictions. At the start of the movie, Mulan actually already knows who she is inside. She just isn't confident that the person inside is who she should be. Should she change who she is inside, or should she be true to herself? Mulan is conflicted.

Before she saw her parents arguing, Mulan was moping depressed and dispirited. Seeing her mother agree with her transformed Mulan from passive resignation to resolute conviction. Her mother did not accept the fact that he had to go. If she accepted it, then she would have spent every moment of their last night together in his embrace. Instead, she pushed him away and turned away. For her to waste their precious last hours together, she must have disagreed with him terribly. Ultimately, she knew her place and was in no position to override her husband's decision, but that didn't mean she had to accept it.

By the way, I'm pretty sure the only person who snapped at Mulan at dinner was her father. Her mother and grandmother were silent. In retrospect, I think they were actually thinking the same thing Mulan was. They looked at least sympathetic to Mulan.

Esmeralda was most likely a loner but it doesn't mean she didn't have a strong attachement to her friends, guipsies nor does it mean that her mentality was different with Quasimodo. Her offering him to join their family was an act of friendship, not a hint on romantic love or some future possibilities for them two. I think Esmeralda made her feelings for Quasi pretty clear.

Mulan was indeed conflicted after returning from a match maker. Then her father was called to war and she once again failed to do what was expected from her or any other woman in her position in that time - to "know her place" and she spoke her mind in public, trying to explain that her father can't fight. Her grandmother and mom, like you said, didn't say anything during the dinner because they seemed to "know that place" and they didn't show many signs of rebellion against their position in society or against the fact that a woman in that time in ancient China didn't have the last say. Her father snapped at her, provoking another wave of despare in Mulan. However, it's not like her opinion about anything changed, she seemed to already get used to the fact that she was the one to embarress (as she thought) her family from time to time and this time she just accepted that her behavious at dinner was viewed just like her usual attempts to speak her mind are being viewed. And still the first thing she could think of was her father and what she can do to help him. Whether or not she had witnessed the argument between her parents, she would have still gone to war imo.

I'll let you have the last word, since it's a difference of opinion and personal interpretation.

I just wanted to say I'm sorry if I upset you with arguing. Usually I don't apologize on fan sites when arguments get heated up...I just quietly exit out in the middle of an argument, because heated fan arguments just aren't worth my time.

But I've done that a lot with arguments here on fanpop, and I don't want to give the wrong impression that I don't apologize when I'm sorry.

So again, I'm sorry. I'm actually sorry every time.

I don't see why anyone - you in particular or me or anyone else - has to apologize for their opinion at all. Personally, I view the purpose of such fansites to give an opportunity for people to share their opinions and discuss them even if those opinions are different. There is nothing less or more that I personally want from such sites. You don't have to let me have the last word either, it's not an argument or at least not something that I personally view as argument. If you have something to say/add, go ahead and do it. In fact, my point of view about HoND and especially about Mulan is pretty unpopular in many ways, because a lot of people disagree with me when it comes to my take on Mulan and Quasi's characters. Then again, I don't think I should be sorry for my opinion and neither should you.

That's interesting--I actually have no idea what other fans think of THoND, or even Mulan, really--other than some of the opinions of the currently active members here on this fanpop spot.

I'm curious what part of your take on Quasi's character is unpopular, because really I have no idea.

Even though most of our friends watched some Disney movies, there isn't anyone who I can talk to about them. This Disney Princess site is the only place, and even here I feel like no one is listening or cares sometimes. I was really surprised when people read that Prince ranking article.

I have been working on a couples ranking article, but I've been stymied by my need to rewrite and reevaluate everything. To give you an idea of how confused I am, I'm actually seriously considering placing Rapunzel/Eugene at #4. Number 4! Below Jasmine/Aladdin! This should be utterly inconceivable...so I'm kind of stuck until I straighten out what I feel. Besides, it's taking me a lot longer than I expected to build up my drawing skill to the level where I'm comfortable trying to draw the couples.

I also need to work more on the Golden Goose. I drew the first scene of panels, but I'm dissatisfied with the plot outline I've written and need to flesh out more things for the characters to do. There's also something else I need to finish writing, but it's a little hard for me to touch.

Anyway, I honestly don't have well formed opinions on THoND. When I watch it, I'm mainly just stunned by Quasimodo's voice. His voice, whether speaking or singing, is the only voice which has ever made me feel, "Oh, wow!" His voice is just so smooth and sublime and soothing. If I had his voice, I'd just listen to myself singing all day.

My opinion on Phoebus/Quasi/Esmeralda situation is the one that not that many people share actually. From those reviews that I read here and on Tumblr, a lot of people consider Quasi to be a better match for Esmeralda and some are extremely angry at Esmeralda for not choosing him, however, I always thought that her relationship with Phoebus was more organic and consistent whereas a) Esmeralda was never obligated to love Quasimodo romantically or to return his feelings and she never gave him hints on anything more regarding their relationship (this is the opinion that you also disagree with so I guess it is the most unpopular one) and b) Quasimodo's feelings for Esmeralda was from from an adult sexual/romantic attraction but more of a first love based on his desperate desire/need to belong.

I actually get you on contradictions and complecations when it comes to deciding where to place each couple on your list, I remember Rapunzel/Eugene used to be number five on my list and Eric/Ariel number 3, however, now both couples are fairly tied on the first place and I can't even imagine for any couple to surpass them or top them. Aladdin/Jasmine are on the 4th place for me. I would like to read your article because from what I know, couples and relationships in Disney is the aspect we disagree the most about because we see the basis for those relationships in a very different way so I would like to get a more detailed look into your opinion regarding Disney couples.

About Quasi being a better match for Esmeralda: Really? I didn't know. I haven't noticed a fanpop spot with engaging discussions on the other Disney movies; not like the Disney Princess spot. I sometimes check the Disney spot, but it doesn't seem very engaged.

Obviously I think Phoebus is a better match for Esmeralda, although my reasoning is different from yours. I've basically already said everything I think about the matter in this discussion thread.

Well, there is just one more thing. Now that I think about it, I am still annoyed that Beauty and the Beast didn't have a more credible romantic rival. THoND sticks out in my mind mainly for the wonderful musical numbers, and the powerful heroic/moral scenes...but none of the romantic scenes stick in my mind. There just isn't anything in THoND which makes my heart sing like Beast saving Belle, or Belle tending to Beast, or the first half of Something There, or when Beast lets Belle go, or when Beast just looks at Gaston and lets him shoot him. There just isn't anything on that level in THoND...and now that I think about it, I can't stand it.

I've pretty much decided to shift Rapunzel/Eugene down, even though it might not really reflect my true feelings. That would put the Ashman couples in the top three, and I feel that they share a theme of voicelessness, misunderstanding, and confused messiness. I don't know what Howard Ashman was thinking and feeling, but I know that if I were in his place, I'd have felt voiceless and misunderstood. Society back then simply did not accept people like him, forcing them to hide their true feelings and desires.

I was never crazy about the love story in Beaty and The Beast to be quite honest, I love Beast's character and his journey and I buy into his love for Belle, but I think feelings from Belle's side were poorly executed. By the time when he let her go she only seemed to consider him a good friend, she even referred to him as her friend and there was no indecation whatsoever that she has any romantic feelings for him up untill the point when he was dyng and she suddenly said she loves him, which seemed pretty inorganic to me. I wish we had seen more of romantic attraction from Belle's side. I didn't mind not having a better rival though, because I'm generally not into love triangles unless they are really necessary, but in HoND I think it was necessary and it was exactly the type of a love triangle I could appreciate - unrequited love from the side of one of the characters involved with the center of the triangle, Esmeralda, only showing romantic feelings towards one of the guys, instead of tearing between two. That's probably the only love triangle concept I can tolerate and I know it is another extremely umpopular opinion of mine, because most people enjoy love triangles in fiction, but I got kind of fed up with them so the hype around this troupe kind of doesn't work for me anymore.

I love to have generated so much debate! even if it was more about Quasi and the rest of the characters from his film than between him and Mulan. I haven't finished reading all you guys wrote, I'll do that later, but I wanted to say: thanks for commenting!

@maryksand - I know you're not into Belle and the romance in Beauty and the Beast. I actually didn't start off as such a big fan of it, but it grew on me with each viewing.

I disagree with your assessment of Belle's attraction. As I see it she unambiguously was in love with Beast by the time she was dancing with Beast at dinnertime.

When Belle says, "He's my friend," she's really saying "I love him." The way she says it, the way she caresses the mirror showing his image, the way she adoringly gazes at him, it all positively screams "I love him!" Even the ridiculously thick-headed Gaston picks up on it. Clearly, the curse must require her to explicitly say it out loud.

Belle's attitude toward Beast changes literally overnight. It's not Stockholm syndrome, but rather Florence Nightingale syndrome. She starts to care for him when she literally starts to care for him--tending to his wounds. They still have one last combative verbal exchange, though. Her attitude has changed after sleeping on it. After a good night's rest, Beast never loses his temper and Belle has no reason to get scared of him.

I actually don't think Beast's library gift had a big effect on Belle's feelings. Really, she only reacted negatively to Beast when reacting to his temper or early cruelty. After Beast controls his temper and makes up for his earlier cruelty, well...Belle just doesn't have anything negative to react against. She gives him a chance simply because she's instinctively friendly and non-confrontational and a bit needy for attention. She put up with Gaston even though Gaston was unacceptably disgusting and self-obsessed. She'd put up with Beast as long as he were even marginally tolerable.

But it's not just that. She actually starts to have feelings for Beast because he needs her, and listens to her. The library gift thing? That was neither. But Beast struggling to eat breakfast with a spoon? I think that really affected Belle. She no longer sees an obliviously disgusting jerk like Gaston, but a boy who is desperately trying to fit in and not look silly to her.

Belle wants someone who she can really talk to, and who understands her. That would never be Gaston in a million years. But that was Beast, once he controls is temper and starts to show his real self.

I think they do a good job of showing how Belle goes from starting to have feelings for Beast at breakfast and it developing into a serious mutual crush by dinner. It perhaps works a little better in the later versions, which adds lunch (Beast struggles to read Romeo and Juliet, admitting that he's too out of practice; Belle helps him).

And it's not just that the animators and actors portray Belle's feelings growing stronger throughout the day. They also portray everyone else's reaction to it. Everyone can see it (except maybe for Chip). It just isn't subtle at all. They all see how Belle feels about Beast and get excited about it.

So basically, I completely disagree with your statement that there were no indications that Belle had romantic feelings for Beast until the point when he was dying.

As for love triangles--I think most love triangles in fiction are in the form of the "true" couple plus a third wheel. I personally find those to be a bit dissatisfying and a bit irritating, really.

@Popcornfan - You're welcome! And thanks! And...sorry if a lot of my comments run way off topic. ^_^;

I think the fact that BaTB makes a way for so many different interpretations of same relationships, characters and their reactions & feelings presented in the movie says a lot about how exceptionally well written and multi-layered the movie is. You mostly point at HOW Belle said all those things to Beast and about him interpreting the way she said them as movie writers giving an implication (or even a clear statement) that she was romantically in love with him. However, at the same time, I personally failed to buy into the execution of Belle/Beast romance (that being said, I very much enjoyed it and I actually think they make a beautiful and organic couple that leaves an impression that they can be very happy together in a long term relationship, however, it doesn't take away my annoyance over the imo pretty unconvincing build up of Belle's romantic feelings for Beast) simply because while I realized there was a clear attempt from the writer's side to show through Belle's way of saying all those things, including "he's my friend", that she was already in love with Beast, I didn't buy it because I didn't recognize the point when she started loving him romantically, the point when she stopped to just tolerate him or even merely like him for showing some warmth and kindness or for his change of heart and actually developed romantic feelings for him. I get that in Disney just like in any other fairy tale it is more than acceptable for a character to fall in love with another character overnight or through the course of few hours seeing that character doing things defining him/her as a person, like when Ariel saw Eric loving music and risking his life to save his pet, or when Rapunzel managed to see past Flynn's attempts to seem a dashing selfish guy who only cares about money and saw his real self of a lost person who due to an extremely hard life situation at some point got off track trying to deal with the lack of self worth and wanting to make something out of himself choosing a wrong way to go about it and getting lost even more, but with those couples there were some completely clear and concrete moments in which it was obvious that those girls started falling for those guys. For Ariel it was a Part of Your World reprise and for Rapunzel it started with the campfire scene and her confrontation with Gothel (during which she clearly stated that she had" met someone", someone she believed to like her and someone she wanted to spend more time with) and I See the Light. But when it comes to Belle, yes, there was Something There, but like I mentioned previously, this song merely points at Belle seeing a different side of Beast and learning to like him, but there is no single word or even a hint about her romantic feelings for him in it. Once again, it was supposed to be a subtext, it was supposed to be an implication, but I personally didn't buy into it, because Belle never showed anything beyond friendly feelings for Beast during that song and there was no sign of romantic attraction from her side throughout it or during the time that they spent together after it. She never tried to kiss Beast. She leaned on to him during the dance, but that can be easily interpreted as a friendly move as well (especially considering that she didn't show any sort of attraction to him in a romantic way prior to it) and I personally danced with my friends all the time hugging them close and we never had any romantic feelings for each other beyond friendship. Then again, the interpretation of such scenes is incredibly subjective. It's either you see the romantic chemistry or not and I personally just didn't see it nor did I, once again, see that moment when Beast The Friend who started learning to behave himself turned into Beast The Love of My Life for Belle. The fact that other characters wereused to force the idea of something romantic going on between Belle and Beast didn't help, if anything, it only made the execution of their romance look even more contrived to me because it's a pretty common and stereotypical (and an incredibly overused) way writers come up with when they need to prop a pairing and make it clear that "they totally aren't just friends!"

Then again, all of it is just about the build up of their romance that didn't work for me. As a couple that is ALREADY together, despite me not buying into the execution of their relationship, I think they are actually pretty great.

I think Belle's feelings are the least open to interpretation, compared to Ariel and Rapunzel. First, I'll briefly describe the ambiguities with Ariel and Rapunzel.

Ariel - Like it or not, most people think Ariel fell for Eric at first sight, because he was handsome. And it's true that she was definitely attracted to Eric at first sight. Any evolution of her feelings between her first sight and Part of Your World Reprise is open to interpretation. She has no relevant dialog, her expressions show no evolution of feeling, and the only observer available is the clueless Scuttle. As a result, most people just think she fell for Eric at first sight because he was handsome. It's ambiguous enough to allow for interpreting Ariel as developing deeper feelings over the course of her observations, but this isn't explicit at all.

Rapunzel - It's not at all clear when Rapunzel first developed feelings for Flynn/Eugene, and to what extent, and when. She found him physically attractive at first, but clearly wasn't impressed by his "Hi. How ya doin'" Flynn Rider routine. Was she still attracted to him, but hiding it, or conflicted due to fear? Was she simply turned off by "Flynn" until she started having feelings for him later? Hard to say. The only observer to help interpret things is Pascal, and he's generally not very helpful at communicating subtleties to the viewer. Either way, Rapunzel's body language toward Flynn switches to rapt interest after they leave the tower. But it's open to interpretation to what extent this is due to attraction and to what extent this is simply because he's the first person she's ever met from the outside world. Again, the only observer around is Pascal, and during this time he's practically a non-entity. Rapunzel's body language and actions are consistent with someone who has fallen in love at first sight, but they're also consistent with someone who is simply paying close attention to her uncooperative guide. My point is, it's open to interpretation.

In contrast, Belle's feelings are not really so ambiguous. There are three keen observers who provide a nearly constant running commentary. There's the optimistic Lumiere, the skeptical Cogsworth, and Mrs. Potts somewhere in between. The most important of these is the skeptical Cogsworth, because when even he admits there's something there--there's unambiguously something there.

The song Something There also provides a direct window into Belle's evolution of feeling. Make no mistake, Belle is falling in love with Beast during Something There. When she sings about "something new, and a bit alarming", she's singing about her new romantic feelings for Beast. Her body language and the lyrics are perfectly clear about this. You don't compare someone to a "Prince Charming" if you're just talking about feelings of friendship. If you interpret this as feelings of friendship or anything else other than Belle's romantic feelings for Beast, then you're simply interpreting it wrong. The writer's intent is perfectly clear. Okay, sometimes the writer changes her mind or the writing is inconsistent or the other filmmakers have different takes, but in this case there's no daylight between any of them. Everyone from the directors to the voice actors are completely on the same page in Something There.

The only window open for interpretation is to what extent Belle had feelings for Beast before Something There. Something There was clearly the first time Belle herself realized her feelings, but she could have had some feelings before Something There that she didn't really notice at first.

All that said, I find it intriguing that you bring up the fact that Belle never tried to kiss Beast. I never noticed that at all, and it never seemed significant to me. Disney Princesses are "good girls", and "good girls" don't go around trying to kiss guys. They wait for the guy to make his move. Even Ariel waits, although I personally think she only did this because of the restrictions of her curse. Or maybe not. Why, even Lorraine doesn't try to kiss Marty until after he makes the first move (by "parking").

Generally, a girl's first kiss is kind of a big deal. She wants it to be something special, not something she tries to give away to a guy when she first starts having feelings for him. She wants to wait for some mind-blowingly romantic moment, and will refuse if the moment isn't right. Conversely, a guy won't make his move until he thinks she won't refuse, due to the possibility of rejection. (As an aside, apparently sharing a first kiss while watching Titanic with friends wasn't romantic enough.)

Now, I think that Belle wouldn't have refused a kiss from Beast during the dance. But that's not what's important. What's important is that Beast wasn't sure. He clearly wasn't sure, and he obviously wasn't ready to risk it. It would have been out of character for him to even try at that point. Thus, it was entirely natural for neither Belle nor Beast to try to kiss each other yet.

Now, what about Ariel and Rapunzel? Ariel is a special case. She was kiss-obsessed for reasons beyond just her feelings for Eric. She took on the role of the guy, really, pursuing Eric and trying to set up the proper situation and mood for that first kiss. He's not really ready, though, and the results would have been awkward had Flotsam and Jetsam not intervened. Eric and Ariel are perfectly in sync by the time of their actual first kiss, of course.

Rapunzel takes on the more traditional role. She lets Eugene take her on the perfect romantic date, and lets him take all of the initiative...but then for some reason she doesn't see or understand, he stops just before she thought he was about to kiss her. Rapunzel doesn't make the same mistake the next time. If Eugene isn't going to kiss her, she's going to kiss him. Make no mistake, though--Rapunzel was not naturally an aggressive kisser, like Elastigirl or Ellie. She tried the traditional route, and it didn't work out. (Elastigirl, Ellie, and Rapunzel have practically identical wedding kisses.)

The thing is that my point is a little different. I'm not taking the "observers" into the account for a reason that I stated in my previous response: the development of fictional couple's romantic feelings should happen regardless of whether or not they have a bunch of "supporters/cheerleaders" or "observers" to TELL the audience that these two characters are falling in love. Because it shouldn't be about "tell", it should be about "show", since show don't tell is a well known formula for good writing. I didn't need observers in Tangled to tell me that Rapunzel was romantically attracted to Eugene at the moment when they nearly kissed in I See The Light. I didn't need to wait untill Eugene nearly dies to realize they were ALREADY in love in contrast to Belle and Beast where Belle's love declaration seemed to me like coming out of the total blue. I saw Rapunzel leaning for a kiss during the boat scene, I saw her wanting to kiss Eugene, I saw them holding hands the way couples hold hands, not the way friends do, once again, in contrast to Belle and Beast who up untill the point when Belle professed her love to him after she came back did pretty common and general things that friends usually tend to do and even their dance didn't leave any impression of these two people having any romantic subtext going on in their relationship, at least not from Belle's side. they looked like two friends dancing. At least to me. It doesn't matter WHY Ariel was attracted to Eric or how other people might interpret her love for him, the fact that different people can interpret it differently only gives bonus points to TLM for being able to create such a multi-layered story with many dementions so people would have different opinions about it. Maybe Ariel fell in love with Eric because he was handsome - although I'm pretty sure being a princess she met enough of handsome guys under the sea and in fact in TLM series she did but none of them appealed to her because they were not the ones she needed and because considering that it's a fairy tale she had to wait for her true love to cross her path and once that true love did, she just KNEW it was him, which is completely acceptable for a fairy tale, because fairy tales always represented a "love at first sight" kind of romances and there is nothing wrong with it at all, it's a classical way of handling such stories. Or, maybe she fell in love with him because he loved music just like her. Or maybe because despite being privileged and a prince he was very down to earth and not into all the formal stuff othes tried to make him buy into, that being the reason why he didn't seem very thrilled seeing his "birthday present" in a form of a statue and Ariel could relate to that attitude. Or maybe it was because he loved his pet and nearly died for him. It doesn't matter what the reason was, the point is that once Ariel fell in love with Eric - she KNEW it and I KNEW it as a viewer. When she looked into his eyes, I knew it, when she sang Part of Your World reprise I knew it. When Belle sang Something There I heared: "He used to be so scary and moody but now he seems like changing for the better and while he still isn't a prince charming he is at least a decent person I can talk to". And it's a good start of a friendship, no doubts about it, but after that I never saw HOW or WHEN exactly did this friendship develop into romance, at least in Belle's head and when her feeling changed from friendly affection towards Beast to romantic love or, if I was supposed to buy into Belle ALREADY being in love with Beast during Something There, what exactly was supposed to be the indication of her romantic feelings? Prince Charming line didn't say anything to me beyond her trying to highlight what progress had he already made in spite of his flaws. I personally didn't see anything romantic from Belle's side, didn't feel it and didn't find it in this song. It wasn't made clear as it was made with Ariel or Rapunzel or other princesses. I know the Belle/Beast build up was supposed to be subtle in comparision to other Disney couples but instead to me it seemed rushed and unconvincing because of the lack of indication that there were romantic feelings on Belle's part other than supporting characters trying to tell me that those feelings were there. And once again, I don't need TELL, I needed SHOW. Yes, it was shown clearly during the scen when Beast died but before that all I saw was Belle seeing a friend in Beast and Beast being hopelessly in love with Belle.

Rapunzel kissed Flynn that way because she was excited to see him alive, not because the first attempt of him kissing her failed IMO. I'm pretty sure after nearly losing him and crying a hell load of tears over his dead body the last thing she thought about was a rational alalysis of what kind of an option regarding kissing she should pick so this time it wouldn't fail and the kiss wouldn't be interrupted. It was an impuls, not something that she decided to do consciously.

Tangled did as much telling instead of showing. By your own standards, Rapunzel did nothing to indicate anything more than friendship by the time of I See the Light. Her lyrics in I See the Light are unambiguous, of course, but that is telling, not showing. Rapunzel makes no attempt to kiss Eugene. The things she does during her "day 2" are no more or less flirty than Belle during her "day 2".

Actually, I think Belle is more flirty than Rapunzel on "day 2". Rapunzel's "day 2" is similar to Ariel's, where they both seem more excited by the kingdom in general than with their partners. In contrast, Belle ignores the wonders of the enchanted castle on day 2. She is completely obsessed with Beast alone--she looks only at him. She smiles and blushes at him. She is alarmed at her new feelings about him (feelings of friendship are not alarming). She plays with him and teaches him and does things to make him feel better. Belle is in an enchanted castle full of magical beings, and the only thing she pays any attention to is Beast! She's in love!

Now, in my opinion both Rapunzel and Belle show their attraction quite well with their body language. Rapunzel constantly gazes at Flynn/Eugene; Belle constantly gazes at Beast (on day 2). You may interpret that as merely being friendly, but it's more than that. Let me assure you that if you're just friends with a guy you're hanging out with, but you're constantly focusing your attention only on him, people will get the wrong idea.

Still, Rapunzel does do one thing on "day 1", which in my opinion really shows/tells she's utterly in love with Eugene. The way she says, "I think he likes me" really leaves no room for doubt. You just don't say something like that the way she says it unless you're in love.

In Something There, Belle indicates that she is starting to notice romantic feelings because those feelings are a bit "alarming", and she compares him to a prince charming. Those simply don't apply to feelings of friendship. Her body language also shows how she feels. In particular, the way she hides behind the tree and touches her own face really shows her shock and depth of feeling for Beast. Those just aren't things you do when it's just friendship.

And the most telling thing that Belle does is that she enjoys the attention she gets from Beast. This is in stark contrast with her disgusted and uncomfortable reactions to Gaston. The only thing more uncomfortable than unwanted romantic attention from a guy you don't like is unwanted romantic attention from a guy you like only as a friend.

Rapunzel doens't just do things a friend would do. Like you said yourself and like I pointed out in my previous post, she directly confronts her oppressive mother figure whom she used to listen to and trust completely regarding things said mother figure told her about herself, even if those things included brainwashing Rapunzel into believing she was never good enough and no one can genuinly liked her - and she confronts her about Eugene because she believes he truly likes her and because she wants to get to know him better and let their relationship develop since she obviously likes him too. Unlike Belle, she never felt disgusted by Eugene previously, that's why her falling for him so fast makes more sense to me personally. Rapunzel always had an interest in Eugene, even when it was just because he was the first man she ever met, and later after she already interacted with tones of other men in the pub and even made friends, MALE friends, among them she was still attracted to Eugene and still wanted to get to know him, trying to make him open up about his past. Finally, during I See The Light, while she doesn't make an attempt to kiss Eugene, she is very much into everything that is going on between them. She leans for a kiss when he does.

Belle enjoyed spending time with Beast but what they did was limited to playing snow balls and him watching her read and her teaching him to "be better". There was not even a subtle indication of romance in those activities other than the dance scene during which they did nothing that could point at Belle's supposed romantic feelings for Beast. Now, I get that Beast was still insecure, he didn't believe she could love him and that's why it's unfair to compare him to Eugene and it's understandable that he didn't try to kiss Belle or something. However, SHE didn't do anything to give him a hint either, unlike Rapunzel who sang "All at ones everything is different now that I see you", who previously tried to dance with him when they were constantly torn apart during the kindom dance and when they finally got a chance to hold hands there was this awkward moment of tension that just doesn't happen among friends. The fact that this tension was there says everything. But there was no tension during the dance scene between Belle and Beast. She put her head on his shoulder so easily like a friend would do and even her body language didn't tell me that she had romantic feelings for Beast at that point at all. As for being in enchanted castle full of magical beings, she already had plenty of occasions when she interacted with those beings and even became friends with some of them, only this time she decided to become a friend for Beast hoping that she could change him for the better. Hoping that she ends up having a friend in him, the one she never had previously. But once again. I personally didn't see any indication of romantic feelings. Ariel and Rapunzel obviously admired the kindoms and streets since they had never walked them before and since to be there among people used to be their dream, but their attention was fully on Eric and Flynn/Eugene. Rapunzel constantly dragged Eugene everywhere with her, even to the library. Ariel grabbed Eric's hand whenever she saw something interesting because while he saw it hundreds times himself and she knew it, she still wanted to share her excitement with him. I See The Light and Kiss the Girl were songs during which both girls showed how much they WANTED to kiss those guys. Ariel's feelings for Eric were made clear long ago ("Daddy, I love him!"), it was a romantic love with no doubts about it. It changed, it transformed, it used to be love at first sight, it developed and grew much more mature and stronger due to the gradual process of falling for each other again from zero, but it was obvious completely that romantic feelings were there because of the behaviour of both Eric and Ariel. Same with Rapunzel and Eugene, they hardly did anything that friends do, they did things that COUPLES do. Even the scene when Rapunzel takes Eugene to read books with her was different from the scene where Beast admirably gazes at Belle while she reads. There is a fundamental difference between the two scenes. Rapunzel is excited to share her interests with Eugene. Belle is excited because someone finally accepts her interests, but pays more attention to reading than to Beast.

You can be disgusted with someone you find unpleasent showing interest in you, but it doesn't whatsoever mean that you NOT being disgusted with someone else giving you attention points at your romanitc feelings for that someone else. You can enjoy the attention of a friend just as well.

Wait--Belle was never disgusted by Beast. She was initially afraid of Beast. (Rapunzel was afraid of Flynn also, although obviously not nearly to the same extent.) Belle is also upset at how Beast doesn't even let her say goodbye to her father, but she seems to be in such a state of shock that she doesn't even think to get mad at him about that. Belle seems to get over her fear of Beast after he falls unconscious, wounded. For the first time she sees not a scary monster, but someone who is vulnerable and in need. After that, she feels comfortable enough to show anger at him to his face.

But Belle was never disgusted by Beast, even though his room was presumably even more disgusting than Gaston's muddy feet.

Actually, emotions of fear and love are related and even easily confused. One reason roller coaster rides and horror movies are popular dates is because of how those emotions are related. I'm not really familiar with the theory, scientifically, but I understand it on a gut level.

We'll simply have to disagree about the signs of Belle's romantic feelings during day 2. I think they're pretty blatant. They do couple things, in a couple way, in a romantic way. Yes, even the snowball fight. If you see a grown guy and a grown girl having a snowball fight in a park, I 100% guarantee you that they are a couple. Seriously. The lunch scene with them reading is sweeter than you recall--they start off right up next to each other as Belle tries to get Beast to read the book (Romeo and Juliet). He tries--he really tries! But he admits it's been so long. It's only after they read a bit together, that she reads the rest of the story for him. She apparently reads the whole thing to him! That's really far beyond "friend" territory.

As for her lack of tension during the dance--it's because she thinks Beast must surely already know how she feels. Belle is honestly puzzled when Beast asks her whether she's happy. Belle doesn't readily perceive the feelings of others. This is a trait she seems to share with Ariel, but in Ariel's case it's hard to say for sure--we only see her when she's extremely overloaded with all-consuming emotions.

Still...now that you mention it, I do notice that Belle isn't ever nervous around Beast after Something There. This is a great contrast to Ariel, who frequently pouts when she thinks she's messed up with Eric. I chalk this up to Belle's naturally oblivious personality. Like I said, she doesn't readily perceive the feelings of others. Her natural inclination is to think everyone else thinks the same as she does, so she wouldn't usually be nervous about what others are thinking. She's nervous in Something There because she's alarmed about her own feelings, not anything about what Beast thinks of her.

I guess maybe you could never relate to this--you maybe couldn't imagine not being wracked with nervousness around someone you really like. Honestly, I can't relate to it either. I'm a nervous wreck. But I do know people who have difficulty perceiving the feelings of others, and they really are less nervous in social situations. They also tend to get into embarrassing social situations because they seemingly say things without thinking about them (in fact, they just don't see why anyone would be uncomfortable or offended).

Anyway, I think we have a fundamentally different understanding of Rapunzel/Eugene singing in "I See the Light". In some songs, like Mother Knows Best, the singing is literal, or represents conversation. In other songs, the singing represents inner thoughts. "I See the Light" is an example of inner thoughts. It's not literal, it's abstract. But there are some concrete events around it. Eugene really does woo Rapunzel by suggesting a new dream, and giving her the lanterns. Rapunzel really does free Eugene by giving him his sachel. Eugene really does show her he's not freed at all by pushing it back to her. That is how they show each other how they feel about each other. The singing is just their own internal thoughts. When they're singing together, it shows how their thoughts are in sync--it doesn't mean that they're psychically communicating with each other. It's not symbolic of conversation which isn't concretely depicted. No, the only actual conversation was the dialog which was concretely depicted.

BTW, I don't see the fact that there were males at the Snuggly Duckling to be a big deal. None of them were a tenth as desirable as Flynn, even considering Flynn's relatively shallow dream.

I think it is the case when we should say "Agree to disagree". I would also like to point at the fact that I DID play snow balls with my male friends which whom I never had any romantic tension whatsoever and I am, in fact, older than Belle probably was at the point of the movie (I'm 23 and she was probably 19-21 although I can't say for sure).

Belle was disturbed by Beast's behaviour in ways Rapunzel was NEVER disturbed with Flynn, that is why I entirely buy into Rapunzel's ability to fall for Flynn through the course of two days whereas find it very unconvincing and problematic that Belle would fall for Beast so soon and off the batt considering the way their relationship was built. Rapunzel was scared of EVERYTHING related to the outside world because Gothlel brainwashed her into believing that people are dangerous creatures that always mean harm - especially to her, a "girl with magic hair" since they supposedly want to take it away for themselves - and Rapunzel, not having any opportunity to check on whether it's true or not, buys into those lies that her "mother", the only person she ever formed an emotional connection with, planted in her head. However, the last thing Rapunzel seems to be afraid of is Flynn. Obviously, she is scared to an extent, after all he is the first man she ever met and he comes from the "dangerous" outside world she knows nothing about beyond Gothel's lies she told her as scare tactics, but Rapunzel relies entirely on her frying pan that as she assumes can protect her and she sees that Flynn really isn't a "fighting" type and he doesn't seem to even be capable of hurting her. It is a whole different situation with Belle and Beast and the fact that Beast held Belle hostage against her will, scaring her and separating her from her father. Belle was genuinly disturbed because of his behaviour and was afraid of him in ways that Rapunzel was never, EVER afraid of Flynn.

I See the Light is something we also have to agree to disagree because in my opinion the lyrics say everything about the emotions and feelings of both characters, Flynn admitting he was living in a blure all that time and deciding to start a new life, Rapunzel realizing that "everything is different now that she sees him", then them holding hands, singing together, lovingly staring at each other's eyes and finally nearly kissing. None of it was in Something There or during the dance scene in BATB. Basically, I feel like Belle and Beast could make a great couple and eventually they did but their build up to me seemed sloppily written and very unconvincing on Belle's part.

I'm not exactly sure about what you mean about being "desirable" but Rapunzel wasn't the shallow type and she didn't fall for Flynn because of his looks - if she had, she would have instantly been smitten with his "smoulder", but instead his charm did little to nothing in his attempts to make her give back his satchel. Rapunzel and thugs actually had loads of things in common and they instantly got along but still Rapunzel chose to be with Flynn and fell for his personality once she got to know him and there for clear signs of her romantic feelings for him along the way that I didn't see with Belle. However, it's just my opinion. I'm 50/50 on Belle/Beast, I love the idea of them as a couple but have major issues with their build up. And I don't think I'll keep arguing (especially since we have gotten waaaay off topic) because I pretty much said what I think and I respect your opinion, but respectfully disagree.

Sure, I'll agree to disagree. I'm so jealous, though! It doesn't snow here in Baton Rouge, so we can't have snowball fights.

Oh--Rapunzel does fear Eugene more than other things in the world. When Mother Gothel challenges her with Flynn's sachel, Rapunzel says she'll give him the sachel...but she doesn't. She's too afraid to, until after she gets what she wanted for it. She's more afraid of Eugene not loving her than she's ever been afraid of anything in her entire life. She's more afraid of this than Belle was afraid of anything.

Belle never had this fear about Beast, which I guess is something neither of us would relate to. She has a real problem perceiving the feelings of others. Hmm...she may suffer from borderline Aseberger's syndrome.

^ Russia is the land of snow so we have enough of it.

I don't really see how we can compare two entirely different types of "fear", epspecially when my point is that Belle was actually scared OF Beast, not of her feelings for him or of being rejected by him. She was horrified by him because she considered him a monster for a large periode of time and because at that point he actually acted like one, holding her hostage in his castle. Rapunzel was an insecure, sheltered girl who was fed up with lies about herself and the outside world by her mother figurewho told her all that as scare tactics and who's psyche and self worth were destroyed by Gothel's verbally abusive and manipulative tendencies so any "fear" she could have didn't have much to do with Eugene but with her own emotional struggles.

Belle didn't consider Beast a monster for a large period of time. At most a few hours passed between when she first met Beast and he saved her life. After that, she no longer feared him.

My point about Rapunzel's fear was that it had to do with Eugene's feelings, not hers. The fear that someone doesn't love you back is natural for most people who have a crush on someone. Belle is actually odd for not feeling it, and I think it's because she generally has a problem perceiving the feelings of others (mild mind-blindness). The thought that maybe Beast doesn't love her back doesn't cross her mind.

Honestly, Ariel kind of has this problem also, but she at least briefly considers the possibility (when she's plucking flower petals).

I don't feel like arguing on the point anymore, that is why I think we really should just agree to disagree.