Why Game of Thrones passing the Bücher shouldn’t be a bad thing 

The following is an opinion piece from guest contributor and WoTW reader Morgoth. The opinions expressed below do not necessarily reflect those of Watchersonthewall or its staff.

This is probably going to sound rather cliché, but here we go: I’ve been a fantasy fan for most of my life. It all began with J.R.R. Tolkien’s book

t. My father got it for me during a time in which I had given up reading books in favour of television and video games. I couldn’t pick up a book to save my life.

But the story of a hobbit whose life suddenly changes when a wizard and a bunch of dwarves take him on an adventure changed my life as well. For the better. After finishing with The Hobbit, I was left hungry for more. I tackled The Lord of the Rings, The Silmarillion and other Tolkien stories, and developed a taste for epic fantasy.

I’ll admit that at first I was sort of a purist –I wanted film or TV adaptations to be as close as possible to the source material. Deviations or new content added by the screenwriters annoyed me, as I couldn’t understand why they would want to change that, it is perfect the way it’s described in the book.

Peter Jackson’s film adaptations of The Lord of the Rings were like a dream come true for me. Sure, things were changed, some characters were cut (poor Tom Bombadil) and some chapters were also gone, but the source material was mostly respected and taken to the screen with love and care. Now, The Hobbit adaptations arrived to the screen after years of expectation, waiting and more waiting. I was at first confused and nervous about the decision of splitting it into three movies, but after watching An Unexpected Journey and The Desolation of Smaug, I was pleasantly surprised. It’s the story I know, but it’s also a new one. Instead of feeling aggravated, I was excited to see new elements and finding myself wondering what could happen in the next film.

Now, regarding A Song of Ice and Fire, many people are considerably (and understandably) nervous about the show overtaking the books, but even if it happens (which is a sure bet for many fans), it shouldn’t be something bad, and here’s why:

Knowing how it ends doesn’t make the journey any less fun.

Sure, not knowing what the final destination is can be part of the incentive to board this train in the first place. But knowing it doesn’t have to ruin the whole thing. Knowing that the Titanic sank didn’t make Titanic any less successful. The same could be said of Frodo’s journey: most of us knew the outcome of that story, but reliving it in the big screen was an amazing experience.

Same could be said of many, if not most, movies, books or tv shows. Before reading the books we can be certain that Harry Potter will defeat Voldemort, and before watching the films it’s a safe bet that Luke Skywalker will triumph over the evil Empire. Action heroes save the day at the end, superheroes save the world and defeat the villains, the monsters and serial killers are destroyed and the underdog team always finishes in first place. The detectives solve the mysteries and the oppressed peasants manage to overthrow their abusive tyrant of a king. Very few stories end in a different note, and yet we keep enjoying and consuming the very same tales over and over again.

Some of these stories are as old as humankind itself, and the reason they’re still around is because they are good. There’s no such thing as an original story; the key lies with the characters, their dialogues and the way their journey is told.

Now, I’m not saying A Song of Ice and Fire is a predictable story (I can’t even imagine how it’s going to end), but rather that the destination is never as important as the journey itself. Think about it and you’ll see it’s true.

If you’re a book fan, are you really giving up on the books because another form of media reached the conclusion first? Is the whole story ruined forever? Don’t you think that’s a little bit too dramatic? Instead of focusing on the final twist (if there’s any) or in how it all ended, people should focus on the story, on how it all led to that end result. The ending isn’t the be all and end all of a work of fiction.

While (obviously) there are similarities between the two, I’d say it’s safe to assume the show is its own thing now. The books are the books and the show is the show, as the author himself said. There are enough differences to tell them apart, many of them clearly the result of budget or time constraints. The show’s battles are impressive and exciting, but not as big as in the source material. Lots of characters were cut because the cast is already too big, and adding more people would be counter-productive. Important events, such as the Red Wedding, were handled in a different way in the show.

That said, there’s no way the show’s ending is going to be a carbon-copy of the book’s ending. They may share a general idea, and it’s likely that the fates of some characters are going to be the same, but the already mentioned limitations will be present as well. I don’t mean to knock on the show, as all the people behind it have been doing a terrific job so far (and I can’t wait for the following season), it’s just the reality of filming a live action adaptation. Not every detail will be present on the screen.

I’m sure the books will have lots of things (perhaps a turtle or two as well) that will be worth reading, and you can bet the final battle with the Others will be far larger on the page. There’s nothing more powerful than your imagination, and the best version of the story will probably be the one you’ll imagine while reading the remaining books.

Some fans just want to reach a conclusion

As we all know, GRRM is a slow writer. Many people who picked up the first book back in 1996 have been waiting for 18 years now to see how it all ends.

Don’t worry– my intention isn’t to bash the author or to tell him to write faster. He’s aware people are waiting for the last two books and those who decided to wait will get their books eventually. There are fans, though, who are tired of waiting and have given up on the books. I understand them, and they deserve as much respect as people who are willing to see the remaining volumes in book stores one day.

The show’s ending will give them closure and an idea of how the travels of their favorite characters ended. And with that, they’ll be finally able to move on.

There are lots of reasons to love “spoilers” or to know how a story ends in advance. But sometimes the fear of spoilers is justified.

In this modern era, with the internet, social networks and many other ways to constantly communicate with people everywhere, there are some who think spoilers grant them power, the “power” of knowing things other people don’t, and so they take pleasure in inflicting such spoilers on people who don’t want to be spoiled. For some weird reason, they think it is fun to ruin the twists and surprises of a story to readers or tv watchers. For years now, many of these people have been spoiling the show to people who haven’t read the books or have no interest in reading them.

I don’t feel that spoilers ruin the experience or my desire to keep consuming movies, books or other forms of entertainment. They often make me feel even more excited or curious about how the filmmakers or authors will pull something off, or rekindle my interest in subplots or characters I stopped caring about. They allow for discussion and speculation, and create expectation about an upcoming movie, or in this case, book(s).

I suppose getting spoiled is an inevitable thing and the best way to avoid spoilers is to take obvious precautions, such as taking a break from the internet or show-related websites. There’s not much you can do if you have a relative or a friend who loves to spoil things for you, but that’s not the fault of the books or the show themselves.

In the end, what makes the prospect of the show passing the books more exciting is that finally tv watchers and book readers will be in the same boat, sailing towards uncharted territory. We all will be unsullied for once, and I’m sure it’s going to be an exciting adventure.

Do you agree/disagree? What will you do when the show starts portraying The Winds of Winter material? Have you been massively spoiled on anything in ASOIAF/GoT? Leave it in the comments!

Spoiler buttons are functional using shortcode [spoiler] Insert spoiler here [/spoiler] to blur comments. If you do NOT want to be spoiled, click the "Hide" Button before proceeding!

What blasphemy and heresy is this? Someone needs to be burned at the stake tonight! Mel shall do the honors.

Theres a bigger chance of a sequel to the Holy Bible beeing written by Stephen King then GRRM finishing ASOIAF.

This is what I’ve been trying to say for a while now in response to the die-hard book readers who want the show to be a direct word for word adaptation. Couldn’t agree more!!

I would read that in a heart beat, not even kidding!

Very few stories end in a different note, and yet we keep enjoying and consuming the very same tales over and over again.

ASIOAF just might be one of these few. We all know that most characters in other fantasy stories would be dead by page 4 if GRRM had anything to do with it. That is why I’d still prefer to read the ending before watching it.

One positive that the show will have is that you won’t get irritating sullied spoileing things for the unsullied (most of whom have just read wikis). It is an interesting discussion though. I hope to add a few thoughts of my own, but too busy just now, so I will pop back later.

I am so glad the TV show is keeping the ball rolling and the story flowing, thank you HBO! Otherwise we would at least be 5 years away from knowing what happens to these characters.

Lol. The fact that this warrants an introductory disclaimer says a lot about how some take this too seriously.

If retellings of source material showed absolute fidelity to that source material then we wouldn’t have much in way of literature or storytelling. Shakespeare adapted most if not all of his works from other sources and provided a different take on them: in particular he gave King Lear a grislier ending than what people were used to and for almost 300 years the play was not performed because people didn’t like his changes to an already popular legend. Same with the King Arthur stories: everyone added material not present in prior ones – the Welsh created him in poetic and oral tradition as a foil for saints, then he became an ubermensch in later stories; the French added Lancelot and Camelot; the Normans created the Round Table, and so on. An adaptation especially does not need to show complete fidelity and because books and movies are two different mediums they can never be the same.

Every opinions piece we publish will have a similar disclaimer. We have a large and diverse enough staff that one viewpoint does not fit all, nor should it.

I agree that the journey is the most important thing to consider. The show is taking us down a few of the possible paths to the ending. But like I was discussing with Wimsey on the other thread, I believe the books will dutifully explore

, not just a subset, and hopefully resolve all known red herrings, Chekhov guns, foreshadowing and twists thrown at us by the previous books and episodes. Heck, the show may only take us to a contractually-acceptable

while the books will take us to the tippy-top of the Frostfangs.

I have enjoyed and will enjoy both plotscapes immensely.

Well, that GoT will almost certainly run to completion with regular, timely installments is a good thing. I’m more or less indifferent to whether or not that means it passes the books.

I’m not too sensitive about spoilers as long as they’re general. I saw a couple of season 2 episodes before I started the series from the top, so it was pretty clear Robert and Ned weren’t going to survive Season 1. But I’m a lot less interested in the “what” than I am in the “who, when, where, why, & how.”

So, “Ned Stark dies” didn’t bother me. “Ned Stark is beheaded at the end of episode 9 at Joffrey’s command” probably would have.

Very interesting piece, Morgoth. It’s nice to see someone address the general anxiety that a lot of aSoIaF AND GoT fans feel now (myself included) given that the adaptation has reached the point it’s currently at.

I’m just worried that when it comes to reading the new books, I’ll be like “Well I’m bored of this now cause I saw it on the show.” Yes, I watched the first 4 seasons before I read the books, but if the show spoils the ending of the books first, I’m worried I may feel like the books aren’t worth reading unless there are some VERY different changes.

Some of us love ASOIAF simply because it isn’t like every other story ever told. We don’t know exactly how it will end. There is no equivalent to knowing from page 1 that Harry will triumph over Voldemort or Luke over the Empire.

I mean, I doubt the Others will destroy all life, but other than ruling that out I sort of doubt the ending will be “….. and Jon and Dany were married after the Others were defeated. They ruled wisely and justly and had many children, and everyone lived happily ever after.” Which is exactly the ending you’d expect if Tolkein or J.K. Rowling or whoever else wrote it.

There is a story for the ages and it has been told many times. You can read all about it in Joseph Campbell’s analysis of the Hero’s Journey, “The Hero with a Thousand Faces”. It’s more interesting than the actual stories themselves for some of us. I don’t want to read another Hero’s Journey. There is an unlikely hero, a scoundrel with a heart of gold and a mentor who always dies before the happy ending, I get it. I want something different for ASOIAF, and I’m fairly certain we are going to get it.

So I’m kind of bummed that the ending is going to be “spoiled” for me by the show, but there is nothing I can do about it. So I’ll watch it unfold for the next three years and then read it in 16 when ADOS is finished. Even though “A Time for Wolves” was a better title for the final book. But whatever.

I see your points, and I’m sure that many people do feel that way, but I’m just not one of them. People can say what they will about making a big deal out of nothing, or being on a high horse about the books being the superior medium to first experience the story, but I would just point out that people are allowed to feel how they feel about things, and that people have a right to complain, particularly when they might feel very strong emotions about the situation. To be clear, I’m not saying that this article is trying to shut people up or say that a different viewpoint is wrong, but I have become somewhat exhausted by that mentality elsewhere. I know some people are bothered by what they see as negativity and unfair criticism of the show/showrunners, but I think people also need to understand how someone might feel cheated out of the experience they expected they’d have, which is to have read first (or to only have read). I know some would say that those people should just avoid the show and social media about it if they don’t like it, but we all know how difficult that would actually be.

I think GoT is a solid adaptation, and that many things about it stand alone as elements of being great TV independent of that (casting, production design, acting, etc), but some of us are not able to do the “they’re separate, they can both be the best version!” thing, and I think that’s where the problem lies – if we see the progression of the story and the end on screen first, we are seeing what many consider an inferior version of the story, and that does take away from the experience. Add to that the fact that it’s not just the things that happen that are spoilers, but the things that are cut as well, and you create something that will leave a lot of fans with a bad taste in their mouth at best.

People can say that’s elitist, and I don’t know that anyone would argue with that, but that doesn’t change how people feel, and it shouldn’t have to.

I remember that when I first started reading the first book I was spoiled almost every major twist and turn in the whole story. And yet ASOIAF is still my favourite book series. Like you said: Its about the journey.

I absolutely agree with your points. Besides, even though the books are surely better written I somehow enjoy the show more.

I like the show about as much as the books, so i don’t really care much who gets to tell the finale of this story. George had his chance to finish before the show, chose not to, so whatever. It’s inevitable that the show will finish first, and thats just fine with me.

Besides – getting to watch a new episode not knowing what will happen. Wow, thats pretty darn exiting.

In 1996 when people bought the book, I don’t think anybody could have imagined the phenomenon that it would become. After all, all that time a lot of people were assuming this would be a trilogy from an middling author without major success. If you had said we would be sitting here in 2014 still waiting for the series to finish, I don’t think anyone would have believed you. But then nobody would have predicted the sales of the books, that it would expand to four, five, and eventually seven (and possibly eight) books. and that it would spawn this fanatastic teleision adaptation, which is the most succesful HBO series ever in terms of ratings. So, those people who bought those books then can’t really complain as they have got so, so much more from the series tan they could have possibly imagined, even if they don’t like some things. Of course, in a way it is easy for me to say this; I was only three or four years old when AGOT was published, and didn’t start reading the series until I had seen the first two seasons of GOT so I haven’t had to wait that long.

However despite not having to wait too long myself, it is inenvitable that the books will not be finished by 2019 at the very earliest. I don’t want to criticise GRRM for writing too slowly, curating a theatre, travelling to numerous cons, or whatever the hell he does, because he has created the most fantastic series ever, but he is a slow writer. Fact. Even assuming he finishes TWOW next year, I highly doubt he will start writing again until mid-2016 because I’m sure he will want to publicise, and rest. I can’t see him writing that quickly for the seventh book either (hey, who can blame him, he’s an old man now), so by that time the TV series will be long gone.

After we have established this fact, you have a choice: you either drag out the TV series until the books are finished, thereby risking the chance that it will be drawn-out, loose, and fillerific, or you decide to only do a limited number of seasons, but ones, which are much more action-filled, strong, with less chance of a cancellation. Given that D&D are exhausted (who can blame them?) from the show, and the fact that showrunners changing never really works, I think that seven or eight seasons seems about right.

Once you limit the number of seasons you are doing, plotlines have to be cut, and ideas streamlined. This might mean that hard decisions have to be made, but then at the end book readers will have the chance to read those plotlines for the first time once the books are released. Even the details that do make the show will have far, far far more details and intricacies in the books. Therefore, we get the benefit of having a good finish to the season in a decent frame of time, and the fact that we will get more details when the books are released. The majority will be happy with this scenario, and only a few will be disappointed. It is not ideal, but it certainly is the best given the situation.

Wow, this is quite a bit longer then I was aiming for, so I will cut it short.

Few more brief thoughts Agree with your LOTR point, but The Hobbit is so much of a bastardisation of the source material that is barely the same thing. Even the most ardent show-criticiser can’t say that the show, up to this point, has been more faithful than The Hobbit

I also really love opinion pieces, especially as they are written by members of the community, and not external writers. More please.

I’m not sure how anything in AFFC or most of ADWD is considered good writing but whatever,it’s your opinion,doesn’t mean it’s true .

I’m not sure how anything in AFFC or most of ADWD is considered good writing but whatever,it’s your opinion,doesn’t mean it’s true .

I would say AFFC and ADWD have some of the best writing in the series (e.g. Reek chapters

) but these books also have the worst storytelling. I’m totally fine with every change the show makes as long as the make sense – in the show continuity!

There is one suprisingly common complaint which I consider very strange. It’s people claiming that “The show ruins the books”.

I understand that some people hate the show but I don’t understand what it has to do with the books.

On the subject of the books vs the show, Martin is going to deliver WoW in 2015, what he does after that is anyone’s guess, but I am thinking that his love for the spotlight will actually become a motivator to get DoS done in time for a motion picture release in 2019. He claims he can riff 500 pages in a good year, and with an actual end in sight, he may write more quickly.

Near the end of his life, and long after his greatest novels were written, James M. Cain agreed to be interviewed by a student reporter who covered culture and the arts for his college newspaper. This young man began his time with Cain by bemoaning how Hollywood had changed books such as The Postman Always Rings Twice and Double Indemnity. Before he could properly get into his rant, the old man interrupted him by pointing to a shelf of books behind his desk. “The movies didn’t change them a bit, son,” he said. “They’re all right up there. Every word is the same as when I wrote them.”

How do we even know that the series completion will be

like the book ending? D&D cannot completely read George’s mind though they have a basic understanding. We may be in for bigger surprises than we now suspect.

I’ve been invested in the ASOIAF world for so long, I’m really rather desperate to find out what happens to each character, and it’s genuinely starting to distract from my reading experience. Keeping it completely real, having an endpoint in sight would be a godsend!

And if anything, my reading experience has been enriched by the sights and sounds of the show. If something is at odds with the image in my head? Well. It doesn’t take too much in terms of mental gymnastics to keep book and show separate.

On the subject of the books vs the show, Martin is going to deliver WoW in 2015, what he does after that is anyone’s guess, but I am thinking that his love for the spotlight will actually become a motivator to get DoS done in time for a motion picture release in 2019. He claims he can riff 500 pages in a good year, and with an actual end in sight, he may write more quickly.

There won’t be a movie. HBO owns the screen rights to all of ASoIaF, and GoT is their biggest hit since The Sopranos. They would lose many subscribers *raises hand* by putting the ending in a movie two years after the last season. I won’t even begin to address casting issues. Face it, GoT ends in 2017.

Bring on the answers. It won’t ruin the books for me. I read the first two books having already seen seasons 1 & 2. And loved having things fleshed out.

Biscotti Knight: There won’t be a movie. HBO owns the screen rights to all of ASoIaF, and GoT is their biggest hit since The Sopranos. They would lose many subscribers *raises hand* by putting the ending in a movie two years after the last season. I won’t even begin to address casting issues. Face it, GoT ends in 2017.

HBO owns the option… which will run out if they don’t use it. Movies will happen. Some day.

An adaptation especially does not need to show complete fidelity and because books and movies are two different mediums they can never be the same.

No matter how many times this is stated, there are people who just don’t get it. Not sure if explaining it again will do any good. I loved the books (for the most part) enjoyed the show (usually) and will more than likely read whatever Martin comes up with no matter what D&D decide to show us. I actually can consider two takes of a story at a time without my head exploding. So I agree with all of the above.

(Why you shouldn’t write at 1:30am post Halloween

ColdFeet: want the show to be a direct word for word adaptation.

… which means that it’s not adapted in the slightest! We only need to look at the first two Harry Potter films to see how badly that goes.

To use my prior analogy, B&W’s job is to turn a shark into a T. rex. The mistake that fans make is to compare the dinosaur to the fish: compare the fish to other fish and the dinosaur to other dinosaurs. Neither is inherently superior to the other: it’s just as different as living in the sea vs. living on land.

Yeeeah.. that’s nice ‘n all, but I’m still completely tuning out of the show as soon as it starts to officially and primarily cover brand new material.

I’ll admit I watched the show before reading the books (and have to thank the show for it), but once I read them all, I was way more sold on the original telling; that’s just my personal preference. I want to see the story unfold and end the way GRRM tells it. Once that’s done (in about another decade) I’ll get around to finishing the show.

I have heard this argument before, and at first I could understand, but, and it’s a big but, it isn’t realistically going to happen.

After the red wedding, news of it was all over the internet, and even the news, and in places completely unrelated to the show. At the end of GoT I can guarantee that who is sitting on the Iron Throne will be big news, and will be unavoidable. Will you know all the details? Of course not, but you will know

of what happens. Despite this I can see ypur point of view, but I can’t see it working.

I think GoT is a solid adaptation, and that many things about it stand alone as elements of being great TV independent of that (casting, production design, acting, etc), but some of us are not able to do the “they’re separate, they can both be the best version!” thing, and I think that’s where the problem lies – if we see the progression of the story and the end on screen first, we are seeing what many consider an inferior version of the story, and that does take away from the experience.Add to that the fact that it’s not just the things that happen that are spoilers, but the things that are cut as well, and you create something that will leave a lot of fans with a bad taste in their mouth at best.

Simple solution: Just don’t watch the show.

I don’t know if this has been posted before.. But here is a epic and possibly spoilery picture of Osuna bull ring filming!

Jeb: After the red wedding, news of it was all over the internet, and even the news, and in places completely unrelated to the show

That is true. And it is also true that the vast majority of people don’t know about it. The entertainment news borders on pointless: it essentially is talking to the choir in that the vast majority of people who read articles about shows, movies or books

are people who have seen/read it. At most, people know that the show killed off a lot of “good guys” in that episode: but unless they’ve watched the show, then anything else that they might hear slides right out of their brains because it lacks any context.

Fuck my tits. I wrote a pretty long and on-topic post and it took me to an error page. Gone.

I’m one of those who just wants a conclusion already. I’m not the type who can obsess forever on the same thing, and I tend to move on after a while. I like the story a lot, but I’d rather get an ending while I still care about it.

sj4iy: I like the story a lot, but I’d rather get an ending while I still care about it.

Indeed, between all of the years and the mediocrity of Crows, I had almost completely forgotten about SoI&F! The TV series rekindled my interest hugely. (Dragons being a big step back up in quality helped, too!)

Indeed, I remember watching the 3rd or 4th episode, where Ned says farewell to Jon, with something clawing at the back of my mind:

and then I announced to my wife: that’s right! Jon’s Ned’s nephew, not his son!!!!

. She looked at me quizzically and then got a shocked “geez, how did I forget about that?” look! (She couldn’t read Crows, and hasn’t read any of the books since Swords came out 14 years ago; at this point, she remembers almost nothing about them.)

This happened to me as well. If it happens again, here’s what worked for me:

Click the back arrow. It should take you back a page and to your comment, pre posting. Try “post comment” again. Copy and save your comment before you do so, just in case. Do NOT hit refresh.

I’m sorry you lost the post–one of the most frustrating things!

Credit where credit’s due! I don’t have the patience to craft thought pieces such as this one, so I’m glad there are members here who do it so well!

I’m the last person you have to explain errant Halloween internet activities to

Of course its a good thing. Theres no way in hell it wont at some point in time. GRRM is to blame in the sense “his fame” has distracted him and took him out of his creative zone he had before the HBO series. The first 3 books came out 2 years in between each other and the story was so rich and epic. Once a buzz began he was travelling making appearances interviews etc the next 2 books (AFFC/ADWD) took 11 years between them and now EVEN IF TWOW miraculously drops by 2016 IT WILL BE ATLEAST 2021-2022 before A DREAM IF SPRING sees the light..years after HBOS series finale. I honestly think hes stuck and all the theories and fan questions day after day has had an impact on his story in some sense or the other. So fans sullied or unsullied should be happy when show passes books cuz it will be at least 6-7 maybe even 8 years before the ending is published

If this is an “in-show” picture (and it looks like it is) then this is indeed a big spoiler and diversion from the books. Interesting…

Of course its a good thing. Theres no way in hell it wont at some point in time. GRRM is to blame in the sense “his fame” has distracted him and took him out of his creative zone he had before the HBO series. The first 3 books came out 2 years in between each other and the story was so rich and epic. Once a buzz began he was travelling making appearances interviews etc the next 2 books (AFFC/ADWD)took 11 years between them and now EVEN IF TWOW miraculously drops by 2016 IT WILL BE ATLEAST 2021-2022 before A DREAM IF SPRING sees the light..years after HBOS series finale. I honestly think hes stuck and all the theories and fan questions day after day has had an impact on his story in some sense or the other. So fans sullied or unsullied should be happy when show passes books cuz it will be at least 6-7 maybe even 8 years before the ending is published

Granted, not everyone is an infant-minded adult suffering from terrible upbringing which makes them so impatient they have to belittle the genius who made the thing they claim to love enough to crap all over its god.

The journey vs the destination. Mmphhh. You can take a 747 or you can drive. You can take the Interstates or the federal highways or the county roads. Or the train. Which will provide you with a better sense of the journey? The view from 30,000 feet or driving through small towns or cutting through neighbourhoods in a domed observation car.

The visual adaptation is fine for getting the story told, and 70 hours to tell what will be close to 10,000 pages is the 747 view at worst or the I-80 view at best. Where the adaptation lacks is in the colour commentary. Would you want to watch a sporting event on TV with no colour commentary, or Kyron graphics? Same thing, showing Dragonstone, for example, with only Stan and Mel and Davos rattling around that huge castle on their own, without normal folk bringing it to life. Ditto the Dreadfort. You’re zipping through at a breakneck pace without the ability to stop in the town diner or wander off to see that waterfall a half-mile down the dirt road. You get there faster but poorer for the experience lost.

I also think the show will end nicely enough. The BigBad(s)™ will surely be defeated, the overall forces of “good” (for lack of a better term) will ultimately prevail but it probably won’t be a true happily ever after. Westeros, after all, is a complex and huge place and one king or queen on a prickly chair will never make everybody happy.

I tend to think George will write the Iron Throne out by the end and we’ll probably see local or regional rule, but the end result will be the ending of the threat from the far North, and I’d wager that we’ll see the end of the dragons and magic at the same time as the Wall falls, and I have no doubt it will.

The Starks that live will be changed but there will once again be a true Stark in Winterfell. The Dreadfort will be razed, houses Bolton and Frey will die out or be wiped out, and house Lannister will go to either Tyrion or A Player To Be Named Later. I’m hoping for Good Things for Sandor, Arya, Tyrion and especially Davos–(or at least noble and powerfully meaningful deaths).

You can avoid spoilers if you’re smart about it and know what to watch out for. It’s really not too hard.

So much for Dany being alone and taking charge of the situation by herself. Seriously? Even Missandei is in on it?

[It seems like you and Cami discovered this simultaneously on different threads.]

Geez, the show has gathered a few moles this season. Me no likey the implications of this peek. Are they all going to hop on D’s back? Are they escaping from the mass Harpy attack

Will Jorah get his kiss? Is that Tyrion’s leg in the background? Waat da fook? I must avert my eyes!

I highly doubt it means they are all going for a ride…. Could simply be that Daario and co ran down after Dany to defend her (or run for cover? Notice the people in the background), but she steps forward ultimately and, well you know the rest.

Nicely written and thought provoking but I disagree with your main point namely

To me, GRRM’s writing strengths are a) his plotting and b) his dialogue. Which is why they make for great tv. But it isn’t the best writing in the world. It’s first and foremost a very compelling story. A lot of the thrill comes simply from finding out what happens next. Once you remove that, it does tarnish it for me. I watched season one and then read the books. I had more enjoyment from the tv season one compared to the book, and then conversely the other books compared to the subsequent tv seasons because they told me the story first.

On balance I’d rather find out the story through the books as it is a richer medium and presents GRRM’s true vision. If I find out through the adaptation it will spoil the books – for me.

GeekFurious: Granted, not everyone is an infant-minded adult suffering from terrible upbringing which makes them so impatient they have to belittle the genius who made the thing they claim to love enough to crap all over its god.

Lol,yeah the genius who would rather spend time writing a world book even though he knows his series is in danger of being passed and making every excuse under the sun not to write the next novel,oh and he said he hates fan fiction writers yet i guess the ones who kiss his ass 24/7 and share their profits with him are cool .(i’m talking about those leeches who run westeros.org btw )

This is what I’ve been trying to say for a while now in response to the die-hard book readers who want the show to be a direct word for word adaptation. Couldn’t agree more!!

I just can’t understand people who say things “the show has ruined the books for me”. Have the published books had dialogue and narrative changed within? NO. Have the published books had characters/stories removed or new characters/stories inserted? NO. Is anything stopping you reading the published books and enjoying them as they are written? NO. Is anything forcing you to watch the show? NO.

The books are a great work of literary fiction and I enjoy reading them; the show is great and I enjoy watching it: the fact that the two diverge perhaps ever more worries me not. I look forward to the resolution of both and how the books may (assuming they are published before I shuffle off this mortal coil) arrive at their destination in a different way to that seen in the show I find intriguing not a disgrace that the show will “spoil” it.

Honestly I think some would only be happy if the show consisted of the camera pointing at the book pages with someone turning them over every so often.

We’ve already seen a few pictures indicating that in the show the Sons of the Harpy will attack directly instead of just trying to poison her, causing a massacre (hence the dead but not charred bodies in the back.) It seems Dany’s people will try to escort her out of the Pit to safety, but Drogon will come, maybe in this version not just because of the noise but because of the attack, and… well, we don’t know, but presumably it’ll go like in the books.

It also means Jorah wins whatever fight he has to win to get on Dany’s good graces before the Harpy attack happens! That’s the biggest spoilers of that picture for me, honestly. It probably means Jorah will also get on Dany’s good graces somehow in TWOW.

So, what’s the deal? The attack happens, Dany is going to be escorted out of the Pit and then Drogon comes? The scene is starting to take shape. I like it. Now, I would only ask where Tyrion features on all this, beyond what we already saw.

Hello to WOTW- I want to report a problem. It seems that whenever I try to post something long (or at least about half of the time) on the mobile site, I get this message “your request times out, please retry the request”. When I press back, the comment is gone. As you can imagine, that’s pretty annoying. I’d appreciate it if you would investigate the problem

And not everyone is an infant minded adult who has to belittle everyone who disagrees with him, either.

GRRM used to be great at his job, and then something happened. We don’t exactly know what, but something clicked. He’s now completely disregarded timelines, and has become completely dellusional about the show’s pace (3 seasons of AFFC and ADWD, George? Really? And then the movie crap?). I know that if I shat over the timelines in MY job, I’d have gotten fired for it long ago, no matter how good the finished product is (and it’s safe to say AFFC and ADWD are much less liked than the first three novels, so it doesn’t seem like the long development time actually improved the books).

At this point, TWOW will come out late in 2015 if GRRM works a miracle, but most likely in 2016 and quite possibly after the show spoils most of TWOW’s major events. ADOS is at least 6-7 years away, that’s 3-4 years after the show has told the ending already. How many people will stay interested? I think I will, but I don’t think many others will too. The minority that surfs these forums and is wholly devoted to talking about the show and the books? Absolutely. But I am willing to bet that a large portion of the less faithful book readers won’t bother with ADOS, let alone the very likely 8th book (which will come out a DECADE after the story would be finished in the show).

At this point, it’s not a matter of patience anymore. GRRM failed big time by not giving a shit while the show plowed along. That will have a major impact on his sales, which would have reached a new peak if he’d have finished first, no doubt; and it will have a major impact on his fanbase as well. People will stop caring and they will watch the show to sarisfy their needs and they will give up on the books, all because GRRM decided he’s too good to work a job like a normal human being and actually try writing.

What I like about having the show, is that no matter how far the books get (because they may never get finished) and how long it takes (in my opinion it’ll be 8 books, if GRRM can manage to finish the last one without Elio and Linda pitching in- which I would never read, btw), I’ll always know I have the ending right here. The ending to the story that the old GRRM, the one I still admire, wrote and planned in the first place and that D&D are committed to- even if the journey is a little bit different, even if some characters are cut, even if whole storylines are cut. With the show, there is an end in sight- something that should be true about every series that has passed its mid point, IMO- and that would make the wait for the books much less stressful. As far as I’m concerned, now that we have the show, GRRM can even not finish. He can do whatever the fuck he wants, and I won’t care.

But artists are special snowflakes, and we’re not worthy #NOONEUNDERSTANDS

I don’t know how to do a bowing emoticon on WOTW, but pretend I posted one. Having an end in sight is very important. Good that you touched on that. Also your mic-drop ending helps in making the whole of what you wrote all the better.

more reasonable, calm and collected than many book fanatics about the changes the show makes. I don’t know why that should be surprising.

Indeed. When you write something and know the mechanics of it all you treat it much more like work than scripture. Of course his hangers-on will hear none of that…

Theresa bigger chance of a sequel to the Holy Bible beeing written by Stephen King then GRRM finishing ASOIAF.

I concur with your second statement – I wouldn’t completely discard any possibility of the book series being finished, but if that happens it will (I believe) be some considerable time in the future. I’ve said on other threads (or maybe it was when I used to regularly visit the site that shall not be named) that not being in the first flush of youth need not preclude a writer from bringing out works of worth. Two (whose work I like – though what I like other people may not) I can think of that write/wrote despite having entered into senior citizenship are P D James (British thriller writer) who is in her 80s and the late James A Michener (American writer) who wrote epic (usually historical) novels; he was still writing in his 90s when he died. I’m sure there are other decent writers who have brought out/are bringing out work despite being “full of years”, albeit I don’t know them. By such criteria, being a mere slip of a lad in his 60s, GRRM is in with at least a fighting chance of finishing ASOIAF.

I’m adding an “edit” to clarify that James A Michener was not literally writing on his deathbed – on re-reading the post what I had written was ambiguous.

I don’t agree with your opinions about GRRM. Nor with most people’s opinions about D&D. Have some sense of nuance. These rants about how either or both of these parties “obviously don’t give a shit” about this or that are just tiresome. You spend too much energy writing off frustrations about something you obviously take very seriously. If that makes you feel entitled, good for you. Feel proud. Don’t bother us with your opinion over and over.

Be sure to post about how well you support your GURM and savior on his NAB. Try not to wet yourself this time.

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