-Mrs.Bungle-"Confess your faults one to another, and pray one another, that you may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much."-James 5:16."For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."-Matthew18:20

misanthrope- have you ever done something so bad that you hurt your parents and you wished you could take it back? It's giving a second chance to those we deem as unworhy. God loves everybody. He hates the sin though. Sin is sin. I believe stealing bread to feed yur family is not a sin.

-Mrs.Bungle-As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector’s booth. “Follow me,” he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him. While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and “sinners” came and ate with him and his disciples.When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and ‘sinners’?” On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’a For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

-misanthrope- I don't agree with what happened to abrtion doctors. However I don't agree with the doctorsactions, but that's for a different day. What the Bible says is that no one's perfect and God loves us as we are. He'll be there when we need him most. I am a sinner too. Eveyone is. Romans3:23 says "For ALL have fallen short of the glory of God."

I'll answer the rest later. Jus one question. How would this be beneficial to you? I ask this because you seem to be pretty set where you stnd.

No I haven't done anything bad to my parents.

Is it not a commandment to not steal? If you have stolen bread to feed your family, you have stolen, broken a commandment and therefore sinned, correct?

What I am saying is that what religious nuts have done to abortion doctors is the same thing that happened in the past with the backing of the church. Its exactly the same justification. What is different now when the justification is the same?

You God cannot love us "as we are" AND hate sin at the same time, as supposed sins are part of the fabric of our identities.

I don't believe you are a "sinner." I don't think many people are.

What do you mean by beneficial? You mean how does being an Atheist benefit me? Or how does this discussion benefit me?

This discussion.

A sinner is someone who is not perfect. We are not perfect. It is part of being human.

God loves us, his creation. He doesn't like the temptations we have not overcome.

The keyword is religious nuts. Having a relationship with God isn't a religion, it's a lifestyle. Religion is all regulations and rules. A relationship with God is like any other relationship, but cooler. The religious nuts commit sin because in the Bible it says "love one another as I have loved you." What they did was wrong and just proves no one's perfect. Everyone has faults.

Stealing is against the commandments but I believe that that senerio is an exeption. Just like for murder, going into the army and doing your job is not against the commandment in my opinion. My pastor agrees with that because he was in the army.

Have you ever disappointed them?

"Then he said to the disciples, 'Anyone who accepts your message is also accepting me. And anyone who rejects you is rejecting me. And anyone who rejects me is rejecting God, who sent me.'"-Luke 10:16

"For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God."-Romans 1:20

This discussion benefits me because I learn other people's perspectives and gain experience at critiquing them and having my own perspectives critiqued.

So if we are all sinners, and its only the begging for forgiveness that matters, why is religion important at all?
If it is normal for us to be sinners, why is there all this fuss about sin?

Again, you have missed my point. The religious nuts who kill abortion doctors use the exact same justification for kill abortion doctors as the church did when it slaughtered non-believers for not believing in the church's idea of god. Why is it that now the same action with the same justification is now viewed as not having the right relationship with God when previously it was celebrated?

So you are saying that the concept of sin or disobeying God is interpretable? The commandments are up for debate? The baker who had the bread stolen from him/her needs the money from the sale of that bread to feed his/her family. What if everyone went to that baker and stole his/her bread, leaving him/her breadless and poor?

Say I have a jar of jellybeans. I tell my brother not to eat any of my jellybeans. I leave the room and the first thing he does is take a jellybean. I come back and ask him, "did you take a jellybean?" and replies, "of course not!" Now he has stolen AND lied, so that is two acts of disobedience against God.
Across town, a man beats his wife to death for cooking chicken for dinner instead of beef. If sin is sin, then logic dictates that my brother and his jellybean crime-spree is more sinful than a murder.
Can you see how saying that "sin is sin" and then saying that there are exceptions based on circumstance is a contradictory message? If sin is sin, then stealing a jellybean or a loaf of bread is equal to murder. If sin is dictated by circumstance, then sin is irrelevant.

If I have disappointed my parents, it wasn't significant enough of a disappointment for either me or them to remember. I've always been delightfully boring on that front.

I can't know a god that doesn't exist. I only know gods that people have created in order to explain what they don't understand.

I went on this website called Biblos.com which I use for bringing up Scripture and stuff. I tried to find the verse where it says all sin is equal. Well I couldn't find it but I did something. I found a link that says there can be no sin of word or deed unless there precede sin of thought. Therefore these sins do not differ specifically. Therefore they should not be condivided with one another.I found out that original sin has no degrees, since the gift of original justice is taken away entirely; and privations that remove something entirely. All sins are equally heinous in respect of the object,' or the infinite God, against whom sin is committed, but, in another sense, all sins are not alike heinous; some sins have more bloody circumstances in them, which are like the dye to the wool, to give it a deeper color.

The Bible is one of many things, but the one thing it is that pertains to this discussion is a guidebook. If you don't follow it you deal with the consequences you could've avoided.

Proverbs 6:30 says "Excuses might be found for a thief who steals because he is starving."

As for the attacks, I don't have an answerfor everything. All I can say is what I've said before. No one is perfect, people make mistakes. They wouldn't be demonstrating their beliefs. It's like saying all Atheists are alike, but their not There's classical atheists, philosophical atheists, dogmatic atheists, and practical atheists.

So sins are both all the same, and all different?

And if you do follow the bible, you also must deal with the consequences of that choice.

Again, you are avoiding my point. I didn't say all christians are alike. I said that the church's past justification for slaughter is exactly the same justification that abortion doctor killers have used. Why was it the word of God in the past (and in the bible), but not the word of God now? This is my point.

The same God that was then is here now so is the same Bible. There is no justification to hurting someone else who has done nothing wrong to you. It's like how some people think they can use the Koran as justification. It's perversion. gtg

Again, you aren't getting my point...

sins are both the same and different. The nature is the same, the seperation from God is the same, but the degrees are different. You do have to deal with the consequences regardless if you follow the Bible.

Some people tried, and still do, twist and add words to fit what they want. The Bible says thou shalt not murder, yet some Christians killed. When I was little I grew up in a church that twisted what the Bible said. As I grew older I moved to another church, which didn't twist the words. I found out the truth.

If this isn't your point I guess I just don't get it.

Ok, lets break it down. What I am saying that the Church, the big institution that, historically, guided christians, condoned the murder of non-believers, justifying their murder as the "word of God" and backed up by biblical passages that promote the murder of non-believers. So in the past, the leaders of Christianity as a whole promoted the murder of non-believers based on the "word of God" as presented in the bible. The leaders of the christian religion condoned killing people in the name of God, and it was deemed acceptable because killing those who were perceived to be going against the christian God deserved death. Examples of this kind of thing are the witch hunts and executions of numerous philosophers and scientists who made ridiculous claims like that the earth was round or that rainbows are refracted and reflected light, not the product of unicorn farts. In some of these cases, these christian beliefs became law (ie the death penalty for the accused). So this wasn't just a couple of random christians killing a coupe of random people. This was systematic, institutionally-supported violence against people who were perceived to be a threat against the christian God.
Can you see what I mean here? Christianity, as an institution, advocated for the killing of certain groups of people, guided by the "word of God."

So, if the church was able to use that justification (ie "word of God") to commit such murders, what is different now that people who do exactly the same thing of their own accord but with the exact same justification towards exactly the same kinds of groups that the church proudly targeted in the past?

1)Show me the passages because I can't find them. I looked it up on Biblos.com and there are no results for the murder of non-believers, witch hunts, promotion of murder... doesn't have any results.

2) I think you are mixing up the Bible with the Qu'an. This is what I found in the Qu'ran. those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be ... This was found in Shakir 5:33.

3)Everyone deserves death not just non-believers. I deserve death, because I have sinned. "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 6:23. The word mercy is not getting something you deserve. "No mercy will be shown to those who show no mercy to others. Mercy triumphs over judgment. " -James 2:13. Grace means getting something you don't deserve. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God"-Ephesians2:8

4) There are many passages that contradict the statement of there being passages about murdering non-believers. "The commandments, 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not covet,'a and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." Romans 13:9-10
If the Bible supposedly has passages that promoted murdering non-believers, how do you explain the exchange of Barabus, a murderer, for Jesus, the Son of God who was innocent and pure, who never sinned. By your statement, Jesus is considered a non-believer? This would be impossible because in order to be a believer Jesus is part of the equation.

6At every Passover festival, Pilate would free one prisoner whom the people asked for. 7There was a man named Barabbas in prison. He was with some rebels who had committed murder during a riot. 8The crowd asked Pilate to do for them what he always did. 9Pilate answered them, "Do you want me to free the king of the Jews for you?" 10Pilate knew that the chief priests had handed Jesus over to him because they were jealous. 11The chief priests stirred up the crowd so that Pilate would free Barabbas for them instead. 12So Pilate again asked them, "Then what should I do with the king of the Jews?" 13"Crucify him!" they shouted back. 14Pilate said to them, "Why? What has he done wrong?" But they shouted even louder, "Crucify him!" 15Pilate wanted to satisfy the people, so he freed Barabbas for them. But he had Jesus whipped and handed over to be crucified. -Mark 15:6-15

1) Many of these depend on which version of the bible you work from. As you probably know, there are many, many versions of the bible... Anyway:

Exodus 22:18 ~ "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" or "Do not allow a sorceress to live" or "You shall not permit a sorceress to live"

Exodus 22:20 ~ "He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto Jehovah only, shall be utterly destroyed" or "He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed"

Deuteronomy 13:9-10 ~ (In fact, most of Deuteronomy could be included here. A large proportion of it talks about which people to kill and how to kill them. I have no idea which bible you personally read so you may argue that Deuteronomy is irrelevant. I can argue that it is extremely relevant but we'll see. This next passage actually starts about 13:6 but its quite long so here is the end of it) "But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage" or "You must put them to death! Strike the first blow yourself, and then all the people must join in. Stone the guilty ones to death because they have tried to draw you away from the Lord your God, who rescued you from the land of Egypt, the place of slavery"

There is also Isaiah 14:21, Leviticus 20:13, Leviticus 20:27, Leviticus 20:10, Leviticus 21:9, Jeremiah 48:10. Again, these will depend on what bible you are reading.

New Testament bibles have a lot of the killing parts removed altogether or replaced with wording that suggests that "God" should do the punishing etc. Men rewrote the bible as humanity moved through the ages because there was a realistion that slaughtering people isn't the right thing to do. If the bible, in its originally "Godly" form was wrong about something that significant, is it not possible that maybe the rest of it ain't so reliable?

2) Nope, I am absolutely not mixing the bible with the Qur'an.

3) Everyone gets death because that is how biology works. For me, saying that people deserve death for imagined sinning is a particularly damaging way to view human life. If that is how you choose to live your life, then I'll I can do about that is feel sorry for you and hope that you don't extend that view to other people's lives, at least not to their faces.

4) Many parts of the bible contractict each other, and contradict life in general. To me, that doesn't say anything about what Jesus may or may not have been. It says that the bible is a political story for politcial gain. How much sense it makes as a linear story is irrelevant.

When they said to stone them that was before Jesus, the ultimate sacrifice; the sacrificial lamb, came along. Jesus said for those who have not sinned cast the first stone. John 8:7. It's not contradicting. Jesus is the bridge between man and God.

God was angry because the very people who he helped out of Egypt forgot all he had done for them. They had made gold images of gods that couldn't do anything.

There's alot of things that don't make sense to me but that's understandable. What kind of god would not know more then me? What kind of god would God be if he wasn't fair all the time, getting angry at people who made fake images as a replacement. I'm too tired to finish... until next time.

I have a question for you personally. Is the death penalty murder or is it justice? They had death penalties back then too. It was a crime to do sorcery. Most of them were illusions to get people to give their money. Others, the ones who weren't just crooks, got their powers from the devil.

There is so much more for me to learn because I'm still young. However I will not stop looking until I have answered everyone of your questions. One more thing. Can I pray for you?

So... God had be corrected in his behaviour by his own son?

God deal with anger by slaughtering people? Well, that is what the bible tells its followers to do, so my point stands that the bible encourages violence based on difference.

I think a God who was fair all the time would be a good God. Seems like that would be his main aim, right? To be just? Instead people worship a God that teaches them to behave worse than toddlers.

If God doesn't want people to worship other gods, then he should do something worthy of worship.

The death penalty, when handed down to the right person, is justice. If someone goes around willingly hurting and killing people, I don't have any problem with eliminating them as a threat to innocent people. Thats evolution at work.

Perhaps you aren't familiar with the Witch Hunts, but most of the women that were killed in the name of christianity had nothing to do with sorcery or anything illegal at all. They had no powers from the devil or otherwise, and they were not crooks. They were just normal women who fell victim to hysterical christian ignorance.

I love that you pushing yourself to learn. I don't expect you to have all the answers. I sure don't! None of us do. I just like talking about this stuff. Gets us to both think about what we really believe.

What you pray for is your business. I don't believe that your prayers will do anything for anyone but yourself, but what goes on in your head is your business and your business alone. Personally, when people tell me that they are going to pray for me I do get a little offended, because I don't have any need to be prayed for.

agh you dont get it do you? Why would a good judge allow others to continue to do what they do?
Would you think it's murder if someone takes the innocence away from a child and someone hurts the one responsible?

I'll give you an analogy. A serial killer is being tried before a judge. He tells the judge that he has saved children from burning buildings. What will the judge look at? Will the judge not sentence him to death. What kind of judge would give a man who has killed 30 people in execution style a slap on the wrist?

God does do things worthy of worship. He has given life, He is the Father of creation; He's healed the sick; raised the dead;made a burning bush grow while it was still burning; He's lead slaves out of Egypt; while Shadrach, Mishach, and Abednego were in the fiery furnace, which was so hot it killed the soldiers throwing them in the furnace; He has been my Comforter when my mom left me at the age of 8; He has been my Counselor when I was in a depressed state.

I'm fully aware of the witch hunts. The one's who accused the wrong person on purpose will have to answer to go for what they did. I agree that what they did was wrong. The true sorceress does need to be killed.

God did not need to have His own Son correct Him. People got carried awaya dn looked for excuses to do the wrong thing. They have to answer for that. Many people misinterpret what God wanted. It can be hard sometimes I guess.

I don't mean to offend you. I simply asked. Why get offended over something that, in your eyes, doesn't exist?

A serial killer should be punished, yes. I didn't argue against that. I argue against a god who punishes people who haven't done any wrong or only do wrong as defined by arbitrary rules handed down years ago through the voices of men. Being an atheist is, according to your bible, worse than being a serial killer, because at least a killer can beg forgiveness, no matter how bad a person s/he is.
And if that serial killer is working in the name of God, then I guess I s/he gets a first class trip to heaven...

I have no doubt that people can personally justify a God-like presence in their life, but big-picture wise, if there is a Christian god, he is clearly not present here. And if he is, he cruel and unjust. Starving millions in Africa, rich-poor gap, cancer etc. If he exists and his a "good judge" why does he privilege certain groups (ie rich white men) and let millions of children suffer in sickness and in hunger? Why does he protect the child abusers who serve him yet demand the slaughter of people from other religions? How is that being a "good judge"?

The ones who accused the wrong people are the leaders of the church and the people who followed them (ie christians). At the time they believed wholeheartedly that what they were doing was right. 100 years from now maybe modern day christians will be viewed with the distaste. Point is, the christian religion has been 100% certain about heaps of different things that have caused the deaths of innocent people. There must be a heck of a lot of christians in hell if killing innocent people gets you sent there...

Witches don't need to be killed. Witches are no different from you or I. They don't deserve death for believing in what they believe.

If even the church, the supposed authority on what God wants, gets it so horribly wrong so often, then what is the point in the religion (as an institution, not on a personal level) at all? Wouldn't it be safer if people didn't fall in line behind an institution that clearly has no idea how to function in the real world?

The offense comes from the implication that there is something wrong with me that needs to be prayed for. If I am happy, healthy and fulfilled, what is there to pray for? So I guess it depends what you are praying for. If you pray that I don't get hit by car, then I wouldn't be offended, because that prayer isn't for me, its for you to feel like you are helping in my safety. If you pray for my soul, I'm offended because I am who I am and I'm happy with who I am. Praying for my soul to change sends the message that my happiness and my existence is not acceptable to you, which implies you believe you know what is best for me purely based on what you believe is best for you.

I got some help from my friend online, Ravagence. This is draining, doing this all the time. This is what he says and I totally agree.

In response to your first paragraph, you stated that you argue "against a god who punishes people who haven't done any wrong or only do wrong as defined by arbitrary rules handed down years ago through the voices of men".
The issue with this definition is that you define who gets punished as innocent. You see, God set out what was a sin and what wasn't. The sin, we can refer to it as wrong, is against an infinitely good god. Now, since it is a wrong against an infinitely good God, it is all infinitely bad. Have you lied? Have you hurt someone? Have you killed someone? They are all wrong. They are all seen as sin.
Now with your whole atheist thing: Yes, an atheist is worse than a serial killer in a manner due to an atheist having no measure of morals. How can one measure without a ruler? To an atheist, Bill Gates, giving millions in charity, is equal in morals to the previously mentioned serial killer as the atheist cannot determine what who/what is good or bad.
Now your final closing there is laughably mocking theists. Just because radicals think that if they commit a sin in the name of their deity does not mean that the actual religion of the deity states that. Take Muslim terrorists. Because they do it in the name of Allah does not mean Allah made them do it or wants them to do it, or even will take it as some sort of worship and give them rewards for it.
Take for example, if you had a daughter/son who killed someone in the name of you. This does not mean that the police can convict you of the crime nor that you will reward them for this.

Your next paragraph you rant about how if a Christian god really existed, he would not stand by while all this sin and disease was in this world. You, unfortunately, then attribute the supremacy of caucasian males to God somehow. God gave us freewill. Oh wouldn't atheists love it if God puppetted the world, controlling it like it was Sims. Back to the freewill comment; God gave us freewill and we made certain decisions and made certain choice until we ended up screwing ourselves over. If God bent over and helped us, that would violate our choices. Sin is like a snowball rolling down a hill. It just keeps on getting bigger. God is not making disease and natural disasters. He's not giving white men power and black men poverty. Those are consequences of our own decisions.

After discrediting humans subtly in paragraph one ("...defined by arbitrary rules handed down years ago through the voices of men...") you then give man a sudden faith in paragraph three. Please do point out where christians have been killing these innocent people.

In response to the witch comment. You are right. Witches are no different really from you or I, but you and I are sinners. And sinners deserve the punishment for sin.

You misunderstand that modern Christianity is actually trying to break the organized religion idea by stressing that it is, basically, a relationship with God. Churches do make mistakes in judgement. I will not deny that. But it's not common at all that the churches get things wrong. You speak about the churches and mistakes like it's a pandemic. It's not that common.

The human idea of contentedness is flawed. Take any psychology course and that is apparent. You're content when what you want is had. But what you want isn't necessarily what you need. Be offended with what ever you want, it's just another way humans show immaturity. In the end there is no need to be offended and you would have just wasted your breath huffing about it.

Exactly my point. Your "God" sets out what sin is and isn't and it lines up perfectly with the political desires of men. The men who speak for your god say a lot of stuff about a lot of stuff. In this discussion, stealing has been equated to murder as if they are equal acts. They aren't equal acts in the real world. Why would a god see them as equal acts in an afterlife? Humans are sensible enough to figure out the difference, why isn't your god?
You are making the assumption that your God is good. Based on what? Kittens and rainbows? The fact that he punishes everyone no matter what they do? Can you see how that might come across as incongruent? God is good, except he hates everything you do?

Atheists have a human measure of morals. Morality comes from humanity, interacting with people, living in the world. Atheists know right from wrong, good from bad. I know it is wrong to hurt someone because I see them get hurt and I see their pain. And I know I wouldn't want people to hurt me. The bible, on the other hand, teaches a moral code that promotes hurting people who don't agree with you. Evidence for that comes from all over, from the execution of scientists and philosophers to the witch hunts, to anti-homosexuality and anti-abortion campaigns. The bible is the original immoral book and I am proud not to take my morals from such a source.

As I said, your church (as an institution, an organisation) sanctioned the killings. This wasn't radicals or people acting alone: this was the mainstream church.

I don't "attribute the supremacy of caucasian males to God" because I don't believe in the supremacy of caucasian males. I said that the bible privileges white males.
So you are saying that black people's decisions lead their people to slavery? Black people used their "freewill" to make decisions that lead their people to be dominated by an entire race of people who used their "freewill" to ensure that the dominant religious and political images reflected them? You are blaming black people for their subordination and dehumanisation?

I don't believe a child chooses to be born into a poor family. I don't believe that child chooses to starve. I don't believe a child chooses to be abused. Like I said, if there is a god sitting back and watching that, then s/he does not deserve to be called "good" and certainly does not deserve worship.

I have faith in humanity. I have faith in people. I believe that people can do good things and be good people. I don't have that negative view that we are all sinners. I think its sad to live life believing that.

I don't misunderstand about Christianity. What I don't understand is how its followers consolidate the the religion's past with its present and future when it refuses to move beyond the clearly bogus material that it is founded upon. Believe in a god all you want, but relying on ancient and clearly just plain wrong information? I don't understand why people have faith in that material when it has been, and continues to be, so damaging. Faith in god, I understand. Faith in religion, baffles me.

Well, kinda has been a pandemic, when you look across history. We are still experiencing it now, with anti-abortion/homosexuality/atheist/scienc­e religious movements.

I find happiness by fulfilling my needs. Religion makes me sad, angry, disgusted. My beliefs feel right for me. They feel right for my world. What I need is something that makes sense to me. That is no different to you. You need your god and you believe that your god is what you need. You can cheapen my views all you want, my views are right for me and they don't need to be right for you. Are you suggesting I'd be better off believing in something that disgusts me and expresses a depressing view of the human race than having fun with a belief system that supports a much more wonderous view of human life and existence? My "contentedness" isn't valid because it isn't the same your view of contentedness?

Psychology courses also help us understand why people reach for religion. Psychology also helps us understand that religion ain't about your "God" at all.

I "wasted" my breath "huffing" about it because I was asked for my thoughts. I explained my thoughts. If you didn't want to know why I found it offensive, then don't ask.

Sin is sin. There is only two ways all sin is the same. They're based on the fact that it separates us from God's original plan. He is entirely holy and therefor sin cannot be in the presence of God. He knows that there are difference. I'll give you an analogy that I came across today. Let's say God's on Facebook. He wants to be friends with everybody. He goes on Lisa's profile and sees that she cusses every other word and she is too consumed by herself that she doesn't see God or hear from Him. He moves on to Jake. Jake rejects God and treats women like crap. He tries Jasmine but she's so consumed in boys that she doesn't hear the One calling her beautiful. They all have ignored God whether intentionally or not.

People in Africa starve because of the choices their goverments made. God sends people to help them. Groups that help are Christian groups like World Vision and Hoops for Hope. There are missionaries that go out there and help out. World Vision not only helps Africa, they help many people all over.

God doesn't privilage white males. They got power stuck in their heads and thought they could own other human beings. All God was talking about was respecting authority.

I don't hsve faith in religion. I'm not religious. I don't believe that my relationship with God is a religion because religion is based solely on rules and regulations. My relaiotnship with God is not based on that. It's so much more and I can't even begin to tell you what it feels like or how awesome it is.

I want you to take a look at this link. It might interest you. Yes it's about Christianity but it's also about science and facts. link

Opps forgot one tiny thing. “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matthew 7:21-23. That right there speaks for people who kill in God's name

Aww I missed this forum's 2 year anniversary by 4 days... :(

Sorry thetacoman for us attacking you (you ARE giving us a chance to become religious) but does God have a birthday?